[Philip Gawith]

I first played this course about seven years and was very impressed. I have just been back this past weekend and first impressions were confirmed. I have certainly not played many courses on the Continent which are its equal.

The course likes to style itself as a links, and places itself squarely within the "minimalist" idiom. On the face of it this is a bit of stretch as the course has a lot of trees on it, especially around the first four holes. On the other hand, it is duneland all the way, the course is really firm (remarkably so for mid-February), there is lots of wind and plenty of blind shots!

I played the course off the back markers ( c6900 yards) which was pretty long - but there was no intermediate length offered. But even allowing for this, there is no doubt in my mind that it is a pretty tough course, especially when the prevailing wind - off the sea - is blowing. The stretch of 5-8 includes two long par fours followed by back to back par fives, with the eight especially challenging off the tee. Ten, seventeen and eighteen are also three really tough two-shotters. The five one shooters are also no push over.

If i was being critical, i would say that the 11th needs some work  - a drivable par four in theory, but with barely any landing area on a fairway which is too steep and undulating and the course could do with a better balance between the shorter two shotters and the longer ones.

But overall impression is of an excellent course, full of challenge on a site which has a beautiful mix of dunes and vegetation. Highlights would include the back to back par threes (14 and 15, with the former especially memorable); the "St Andrew's style wide open fairways where 8, 16 and 13 are side by side; the brutal challenge of ten and the similarly difficult 18th.

I might be worth adding that for all i have stressed the difficulty, my wife really enjoyed the course which is well set up for women.

Finally, there is a 125 room luxury hotel on site which is well managed with excellent food. I will be back!

Philip

[Mark_F]

I played the course off the back markers ( c6900 yards) which was pretty long

Gee Philip, you must have really struggled with all that length.

My heart bleeds for you!

[Mac Plumart]

http://www.golfcoursephotography.com/results.asp?KW=Oitavos

[Greg Gilson]

Philip, I'm glad you enjoyed your visit(s) to OD. We (a group of 3 including my low-marker wife) played here in July, 2012. I will not speak for my 2 fellow golfers (what the hell.....she cannot remember 1 hole but can remember the hotel pool) but i had a completely different reaction to you. Frankly, i just could not understand what the fuss was about and , certainly, cannot fathom where the Golf Magazine World ranking came from. I thought the first 9 (pretty much all of it) was pedestrian, the middle few "linksier" holes were OK to good and the finish more like the start. I'm obviously not good enough to play whatever those shots are that are required to complete #18. I'm not saying it's a BAD course. However, at #88 on the 2009 World List i refer to it needed to offer a lot more. I played Royal Porthcawl the day before and Chantilly, Fountaineleau & St Germain the 3 days after. I would not have put OD in the same neighbourhood - i actually listed it on another post as my most dissappointing round of the year!

That's the great thing about opinions....especially those about GCA...is that we are all entitled to our own!

[David Davis]

I'd have to say I too quite enjoyed the course. It's the best in Portugal in my book for what that's worth. They are a calling it a true links, I suppose it fits the definition as well but I can also see where it could just be arguably an ocean course given I'm not sure where the sand ends and the fertile ground begins in that area. I can't help but to see it as a resort course for the most part and really do have a hard time figuring out how it made the world Top 100 list from Golf Magazine as I've never seen it placed in for example the Top 10 from Continental Europe yet only a couple of those make the list. Is it fun and enjoyable sure I think so, the two times I played it it was extremely windy. I'd say the architecture is rather quirky in some places but I enjoyed the back to back par 3's and par 5's. There are a lot of pretty average holes as well and I too wouldn't classify the first 9 as spectacular.

If you are in the area it's worth a stop but I'm not sure about planning a trip around it, I wouldn't. It's been about 5 years since I've been however and then the course was completely nameless and never received any mention to speak of. Therefore when I played it I was pleasantly surprised having never heard of it myself.

[Philip Gawith]

Thanks for posting the pictures Mac - they do capture the look of the course nicely, albeit i think they are maybe a touch brighter than the course normally looks.

Greg - as you say, each to himself. But i am surprised that your or David should, in turn, be surprised that is so highly ranked. I think it is harsh to describe it as a typical resort course, with all that that connotes. I think the course and the hotel have a very different feel from what you typically get at a resort (in a better way!).

As for the other courses you mention Greg - I have not played Fontainebleau, but I have played the others. They are all good courses but hard to compare classic courses with modern courses. For what it is worth, I liken Chantilly to Sunningdale, which is  a compliment - but i can't honestly remember it well enough to make a detailed comparison. Porthcawl has some excellent holes, especially early on, but i think it has a fair number of humdrum holes. As for St Germain - Ran is a big fan, but I would play Oitavos before I played it. I suspect that i think there are more good holes than you and David think. Also, i am definitely biased by the aesthetic - the mix of pines and dunes is more allurign for me than a manicured inland course like St Germain, and also than Porthcawl which feels like a pastoral links, if i can use the phrase, rather than a sandy/beachy links.

St Lorenzo always used to be voted best in Portugal and i think Oitavos is better - but maybe there are others i am missing!

Finally Greg - I think Oitavos now up to 68 on some or other World list, so you have more reason to scratch your head! We all know about lists, of course, and maybe that is "too high"  but i do think Oitavos stands apart and above from many/most modern courses in Europe with its links aspirations and the overall ambience of the place.

Philip

[Joey Chase]

Philip,
I'm glad you liked Oitavos too. I, like David, find it to be the best that Portugal has to offer.  It is quite unlike anything else that exist in the country, save Praia D'El Rey.  And even that course isn't nearly as good with the exception of four or five fantastic holes.  I like the way Oitavos Dunes is routed and the way it meanders from low point to high and back down.  The major problem I had with it was the over watering creating too lush conditions.  It never played like a links should for me, which is really too bad as there are many fun holes.  Maybe it played more firm for you?  That was the biggest turnoff by far for me. 

As far as the 11th goes, I'm with you.  It just feels like it was shoehorned in a bit.  It has the most interesting green on the course though in my opinion.  That stretch that follows with the gorse and all really stands out.  I wouldn't class it in the 100 world rankings either though.

[Eric Strulowitz]

I first played this course about seven years and was very impressed. I have just been back this past weekend and first impressions were confirmed. I have certainly not played many courses on the Continent which are its equal.

The course likes to style itself as a links, and places itself squarely within the "minimalist" idiom. On the face of it this is a bit of stretch as the course has a lot of trees on it, especially around the first four holes. On the other hand, it is duneland all the way, the course is really firm (remarkably so for mid-February), there is lots of wind and plenty of blind shots!

I played the course off the back markers ( c6900 yards) which was pretty long - but there was no intermediate length offered. But even allowing for this, there is no doubt in my mind that it is a pretty tough course, especially when the prevailing wind - off the sea - is blowing. The stretch of 5-8 includes two long par fours followed by back to back par fives, with the eight especially challenging off the tee. Ten, seventeen and eighteen are also three really tough two-shotters. The five one shooters are also no push over.

If i was being critical, i would say that the 11th needs some work  - a drivable par four in theory, but with barely any landing area on a fairway which is too steep and undulating and the course could do with a better balance between the shorter two shotters and the longer ones.

But overall impression is of an excellent course, full of challenge on a site which has a beautiful mix of dunes and vegetation. Highlights would include the back to back par threes (14 and 15, with the former especially memorable); the "St Andrew's style wide open fairways where 8, 16 and 13 are side by side; the brutal challenge of ten and the similarly difficult 18th.

I might be worth adding that for all i have stressed the difficulty, my wife really enjoyed the course which is well set up for women.

Finally, there is a 125 room luxury hotel on site which is well managed with excellent food. I will be back!

Philip

Thanks for the review and pictures.

Are there any other decent courses in the immediate area?  .  I would love to go to a place like this for a week or so, Portugal has been on the list.  But I would get tired palying the same course day after day, I like to wander out   Thanks for your input!

[Philip Gawith]

Eric there is quite a well known course nearby called Penha Longa that you could try. I think it may be a Trent jones course? It was virtually underwater when I played it so will withhold judgement. But Joey is right - I think the other course you should go for is Praia del Rey. It may nowadays be a bit spoiled by housing, but still has some lovely holes near the sea.

Philip

[Joey Chase]

Penha Longa is a RTJ Jr. course.  It has a few nice holes and is a beautiful resort, but a bit too hilly for my taste.  The other one I would suggest is Troia, an RTJ course.  It may be more Cabell Robinson than RTJ though.  It is along the water with very small greens set in low dunes.  With a fair amount of tree clearing it could be a really fun course.

[Greg Gilson]

Isn't Quinta de Marinha pretty much next door to The Oitavos with a decent course? Despite my personal misgivings about Oitavos Dunes, I'm taking a group there in September 2014 as part of a 2 week tour from Lisbon to Barcelona via Algarve (Oceanica, San Lorenzo & Monte Rei) and Spanish Costa del Sol. Maybe i'll crack the code on how to unravel #18 with another exposure?

FWIW, we all thought the little village of Cacais was a real winner.

[Scott Warren]

Praia d'el Rey is worth playing and is a good excuse to spend a couple of nights in the old walled city of Obidos.

Portugal is fantastic. Great culture, lovely climate, friendly people and one of the few bargain destinations remaining in western Europe.

I really enjoyed Praia d'el Rey (despite the housing and hotel on 3-4 holes). It flows really well from seaside to pine forest and back. The fourth (http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5001/p2260028.jpg) is one of the best short par fours I have played and the stretch along the sea on the back nine (http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9237/p2260077.jpg) is great. I visited Oitavos Dunes but didn't play.

The course that really intrigued me, but I didn't get to, was Troia, a little south of Lisbon - http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/productdetails.asp?id=559

[Sean_A]

I guess I am not as enamoured with PdR as most.  Its a good course, worth playing if one is visiting Obidos or possibly Lisbon, but not the sort of course one plans a trip around.  I think the bottom line is there aren't any really outstanding holes on the property and that can't be good with all the sand about.  One thing I did like was many greens were dead if missed on one side, but it wasn't obvious when standing in the fairway or on the tee.

Like Scott, I am intrigued by Troia, but after slightly disappointing experiences at two of the "best" courses in Europe (RdR & Catalunya) I am not itching to get back to the Iberian Peninsula for golf.  I have my eyes more on Alhambra. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

4 at PdR isn't outstanding?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

4 at PdR isn't outstanding?

Scott

It could well be the best hole on the course, but when I think of drive and pitch holes this one doesn't come to mind as an outstanding example.  I do recall the drive having more to it than meets the eye - pushing the player toward the awkward angle of approach out left, but that discovery may not be made until a ball in the junk has been achieved.  I spose the valley nature of the terrain is somewhat disguised by the lovely setting of the hole.  Again, the less than obvious being a strong suit of the design. Still, one outstanding hole on that property?   

I have said it before, but perhaps I am too hard on PdR.  I was expecting an awful lot because of its lofty ranking.  I think by far the best aspect of the course is the par 4s.  The 3s (especially) and 5s left me a bit wanting.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I'd have to say I too quite enjoyed the course. It's the best in Portugal in my book for what that's worth. They are a calling it a true links, I suppose it fits the definition as well but I can also see where it could just be arguably an ocean course given I'm not sure where the sand ends and the fertile ground begins in that area. I can't help but to see it as a resort course for the most part and really do have a hard time figuring out how it made the world Top 100 list from Golf Magazine as I've never seen it placed in for example the Top 10 from Continental Europe yet only a couple of those make the list.

David:

There are a few people on the GOLF Magazine panel who think that having courses from different countries adds "diversity" to the rankings [and cachet to their having played all of the top 100], so they rank a course in South Korea or Portugal much higher than they would rank the SAME course if it was in the UK.  I suspect that explains the ranking of Oitavos Dunes.  But, I'm glad to hear that you think it's the best course in Portugal, and I'm determined to go see it someday, to help it find its proper place in the rankings, whatever that is.

[David Davis]

Troia I've also played twice. I really enjoyed it as well. The trip to get there was for me equally entertaining. Since it's on an island you have to take a ferry over. I may be biased by the warm beautiful weather and semi tropical surroundings (palm trees etc) but all these courses remind me of resort courses. As do courses like PGA Catalunya as mentioned by Sean. Since I've not played much resort golf in my life it doesn't have such a negative connotation to it as it may to some of you. As for Troia, yes worth a visit if you are golfing in the Lisbon area. I'd say it's the 3rd or 4th best course around Lisbon in my personal opinion. It is unique kind of narrow at times and I remember the greens feeling very small. There are quite a lot of palm trees and views of the sea but the course is quite flat. I know a lot of people that really rate it as a hidden gem there and tremendously enjoy it. Again in and of itself, not worth a trip there. But Lisbon as a vacation destination for beach and golf etc I think is the best choice by a mile in Europe. Which doesn't mean it's the best golf destination in Europe, it's not.

4 courses I would say are really worth playing there, even playing twice. Oitavos Dunes (1), Praia D'el Rey, Troia and arguably Penha Longa, not a great course but a beautiful setting and there are some nice holes as well as quite a few average ones. It is a great place to stay. Yes, Quinta de Marinha is also right there and has some nice holes but a much more mid level, run down feeling to it and as for the architecture I doubt it would make a 4 rating on the Doak scale.

Again, great place for a sun vacation where you can leave the wife and kids at the pool/beach and run off to enjoy some really decent resort golf courses. Even far better than average for Europe and yes great fun just not quite great courses from an architectural standpoint in my opinion. Especially not when you consider what available in Europe and the UK on a whole.

Tom, thanks for the answer on that. I'm indeed really curious what you think and how it rates on your scale. From the book I'd guess Oitavos Dunes would be like a 5 or 6 in your ranking scale. 6 on the very high end.

[Adam Lawrence]

Troia isn't on an island, but a peninsula - you can drive round the southern end if you want, but if you're coming from Lisbon I can well see why you'd go through Setubal (home town of Jose Mourinho, football fans!) and take the short ferry crossing.

I mention this not solely to be pedantic, but as an excuse to add that, at the southern end of this peninsula, the Espiritu Santu banking family are developing the Herdade da Comporta property, which is planned, eventually, to include two courses, one by David Kidd and the other Tom Fazio's first European project.

I visited the property a couple of years ago as part of the Portuguese bid for Ryder Cup 2018 - if they'd won (which tbh they were never going to) they proposed to play the Cup on the Fazio course. David's course is largely shaped, and he told me the other week they hoped to go back and get it grassed this year (I believe the Fazio course is fully designed, but it hasn't started construction yet). It's beautiful land, sandy and close to the coast, though a large primary dune, which I believe is protected, precludes the courses getting right down to the water. It would not surprise me if either of these two courses ended up being considered among Portugal's best.

[David Davis]

Troia isn't on an island, but a peninsula - you can drive round the southern end if you want, but if you're coming from Lisbon I can well see why you'd go through Setubal (home town of Jose Mourinho, football fans!) and take the short ferry crossing.

Adam,

You spoiler. I so wanted this to be an island in my memory. Damn. Thanks for bursting my bubble, of course you are correct. I still enjoyed the ferry ride and the feeling it was unreachable without it.

[Greg Tallman]

I'd have to say I too quite enjoyed the course. It's the best in Portugal in my book for what that's worth. They are a calling it a true links, I suppose it fits the definition as well but I can also see where it could just be arguably an ocean course given I'm not sure where the sand ends and the fertile ground begins in that area. I can't help but to see it as a resort course for the most part and really do have a hard time figuring out how it made the world Top 100 list from Golf Magazine as I've never seen it placed in for example the Top 10 from Continental Europe yet only a couple of those make the list.

David:

There are a few people on the GOLF Magazine panel who think that having courses from different countries adds "diversity" to the rankings [and cachet to their having played all of the top 100], so they rank a course in South Korea or Portugal much higher than they would rank the SAME course if it was in the UK.  I suspect that explains the ranking of Oitavos Dunes.  But, I'm glad to hear that you think it's the best course in Portugal, and I'm determined to go see it someday, to help it find its proper place in the rankings, whatever that is.

LOL, I think I could throw two names at you... but I won't/cannot.

[Steve Okula]

The Oitavos Golf site lists the designer as Arthur Hills - in case anyone, like me, was wondering, now you don't need to go look it up, like I did.

Shouldn't it be simple etiquette to list the designer of a course that begins a thread?

[Scott Warren]

At least we didn't spend four pages referring only to OD.

Was googling it to discover the designer really that arduous a task?!

[Greg Tallman]

The Oitavos Golf site lists the designer as Arthur Hills - in case anyone, like me, was wondering, now you don't need to go look it up, like I did.

Shouldn't it be simple etiquette to list the designer of a course that begins a thread?

Heck, I am just impressed this has not turned into a bashing of Hills. Must mean the course is rather good??!!

[Adam Lawrence]

The Oitavos Golf site lists the designer as Arthur Hills - in case anyone, like me, was wondering, now you don't need to go look it up, like I did.

Shouldn't it be simple etiquette to list the designer of a course that begins a thread?

Former Hill-Forrest associate Drew Rogers led the project.

[Steve Okula]

At least we didn't spend four pages referring only to OD.

Was googling it to discover the designer really that arduous a task?!

Yes.

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