[Mike_Trenham]

The original ninth hole at my club's (St Davids Golf Club, Wayne PA, 1927 D.J. Ross) was a short par 4 played from an elevated tee.

 I have often thought it may have played like number ten at Riviera CC.  In 1936 it was shortened to a par three at the recommendation of Tillinghast, I think too many shots were getting on the patio.

#8 at Bandon Trails seems to have some of the same risk reward options.

#6 at Birdwood (UVA)  another home club for me played like it but is way too penal to be a great hole.

Any othe examples out there?

[Joe_Tucholski]

Geoff Shackelford is on record saying their inspiration for #12 at Rustic Canyon was the 10th at Riviera.

[Tom_Doak]

I've seen a few pretty close copies of the 10th at Riviera in the last 10-20 years.  There is one at Vaquero, the Tom Fazio course in Dallas ... somewhere on the back nine, can't remember the hole number.

None of the copies have the green as skinny as the original, nor quite as tilted.

I built a vague version of the hole myself thirty years ago when I worked for the Dyes ... the 10th at Riverdale Dunes.

[Sven Nilsen]

The old version of the 4th hole at Griffith Park (Wilson).

The 4th at Talking Stick South has only one bunker, but a fairly steeply pitched green that presents alot of issues.

15 at Wild Horse.

[Mark Saltzman]

At Vaquero? 13 maybe? I don't see much of a resemblance though.

[Alex Miller]

Geoff Shackelford is on record saying their inspiration for #12 at Rustic Canyon was the 10th at Riviera.

This was my first thought as well, but I think one thing that sets Riviera apart is the clear preferred line of play (and the bunkers that get in the way). I was reading back on a thread from 2004 the other day and found a post that talked about how they contemplated putting a bunker out there on 12, but I am kind of glad they didn't. It's a unique hole and I like that it doesn't try to be like Riv's 10th.

Wilshire has 2 par 5's with greens that curve around like Riviera's 10th and since players are occasionally going for them with 3 wood then they play similarly.


P.S. I think the green on Rustic's 12th is better than Riv's 10th...

[Matt Bosela]

Richard Zokol has told me that when he designed the 13th hole at Sagebrush, it was the 10th at Riviera that provided the inspiration.

The holes couldn't play more differently, however.  The tee shot at Riviera's 10th is best played well left and short (at least by mere mortals like us...maybe not the Tour pros) whereas the tee shot at Sagebrush's 13th needs to be attacked with driver down the left side in order to open up the best angle into the green.  Layup tee shots to the open right portion of the fairway are left with a very awkward shot to a green that is built up in front and slopes sharply away from the player.

Both are wonderful golf holes.


13th Tee: Sagebrush


13th Approach: Sagebrush


13th Approach: Sagebrush (a shot that better showcases the great scale at the green - courtesy Armen Suny)

[Bill Shotzbarger]

What's the formula? Short par 4 + downhill + skinny green + slight doggy = like Riveria 10th?

[Mike_Trenham]

For me a thing that stands out is that the layup option while to a wide area is full of hazards forcing you to make a choice on the tee.

[Mac Plumart]

What's the formula? Short par 4 + downhill + skinny green + slight doggy = like Riveria 10th?

I'd add the pitch of the green, as well.

[Neil White]

One hole that I always felt held similar shot options to the 10th at Riviera is the 10th at the Belfry.

The easy play is to lay-up with your drive and accept what should be an easy birdie - whilst the shot penalty for coming up short at the Belfry is a drop out of the water leaving a pitch to a fairly mundane green at Riviera the size and slope of the green make the approach out of the bunkers or off-line pretty difficult.  This week has seen a number of golfers take on the drive, find sand and end up with bogey; or worse.

Two very different looking holes both with very different stings in the tail - although both though present as an easy birdie or par when stood on the tee.

[Mark McKeever]

Mike,

The original hole looks fantastic!  Is there anything preventing it from being restored today?

Mark

[Jim Colton]

There really isn't anything special about the topography  on #10 that would prevent it from being replicated elsewhere, is there? Is the green simply too radical to be duplicates? This is one of the great short par 4's in the world (some would say greatest), so what would prevent it from being a template?

I might try to fit one in the armchair contest, Alex...

[Tom_Doak]

What's the formula? Short par 4 + downhill + skinny green + slight doggy = like Riveria 10th?

That's a good question, if the template is so vague that somebody thinks the 10th at The Belfry fits.  [Note:  I admire the 10th at The Belfry, and the designers should get credit for coming up with it.  I am pretty sure that Riviera was nowhere in their minds.]

As for some of the other examples, the key difference to me is what you see on the hole at Sagebrush.  [I thought Rod Whitman designed Sagebrush, not Dick Zokol, but that's for another day.]  A pro like Zokol wants to make you carry a hazard to get to the left side of the hole for the preferred angle into the green ... so that only a good player can do it, and everyone else is left with an impossible pitch.  That's the professional's definition of risk and reward.

Thomas' definition was much different.  He GAVE you the left side of the hole, as long as you didn't try to get too close to the green.  That's why he could tighten the screws on the second shot with that VERY narrow green and the wrong-way tilt -- because he gave you no excuse for being to the right.  The risk penalty is all in the second shot -- but it results from going for the green and missing to the wrong side.

By contrast, I haven't played the Sagebrush hole, but I'd bet anything that the approach from the right is not nearly as severe as the one at Riviera -- the designer has to rationalize that he couldn't punish the average player that much.  But, that's also quite convenient for a professional, since it means that whether he goes left or right, it should still be an easy four for him, and maybe a three.

[Martin Toal]

16th at RCD. Used to be a 260-ish par-4, with a downhill tee shot to a fairway with a small rise then up to the green. Should have been an easy 3 most times, but a lot of players walked off with a 5.

Now lengthened to 330-odd but still driveable in the right conditions. Maybe for good players, not me.

http://www.royalcountydown.org/championship-links-hole16.aspx

[Mike_Trenham]

Mike,

The original hole looks fantastic!  Is there anything preventing it from being restored today?

Mark

yes, proximity to the clubhouse is an issue, as could be number 8.  Also number 9 is now our best par three.  Where the green sat is now quite wet most of the time.

[Joe_Tucholski]

I know this thread is about short par 4's that are like Riviera but I played Coto de Caza by RTJ Jr. yesterday and it has a short par 4 that is in my head.  It's not like Riviera 10th but has similarities (width and a fairly easy tee shot to one side).  Unlike Riviera the green isn't really canted and the easier shot to the left gives you the undesirable approach.

I think this sort of design is what most short par 4's are like.  The easy tee shot gives you the harder approach.  The harder tee shot gives you the easier approach.

In my group 1 tried to go for the green, 2 went along the blue path and I went along the red line.  The guy who went for the green ended up in the right greenside bunker and made bogey after rolling over the green.  The blue path is the easiest line off the tee (the tee sets you up left) but it's a huge depression where the green is blind and you have to carry the bunker on the front left.  I like to think my shot on the red line is the play.  It allowed full visibility of the green and no required bunker carry (the pin was on the left so the right bunker was in play).



It seems counter intuitive that the 10th a Riviera would work.  Basically it seems Thomas is dictating to you exactly what the smart play is...take the easy tee shot to the wide open left and then you'll have the easier approach angle.  My interpretation of this thread (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53610.0.html) is the hole works because it's a "red herring."  Essentially it tricks a player because it's something so rarely used.  Most players are probably thinking if I challenge the tee shot it will be an easier approach which in fact is the opposite.  Some will say after one play that effect will be gone but I'm not sure my brain works that way.  I'm glad the hole isn't really replicated...if it was it would take away from its strategic impact.

[Neil White]

Tom,

I understand your query regarding the vagueness of the formula.  This is how I saw a comparison between the two and how the formula fits.

Green - the ultimate risk / reward - you've attacked the green and held the shot - score to par -2 to -1
Yellow - the safe lay-up - routine pitch into the green - score to par -1 to E
Orange - the overhit drive resulting in a more complicated mid length bunker shot - over water to the Belfry and into a very narrow, steeply pitched green surrounded by sand at Riviera - score to par possibly -1 but more likely E
Red - This is where the formula changes - at the Belfry you take the penalty but have a routine third into an easy green - score to par E to +1 whereas at Riviera the penalty comes from the difficulty in executing the second shot into the tough green - score to par E to +2 

If anything hitting into the Red area at Riviera holds a greater shot value than taking the penalty drop at the Belfry.

[Greg Tallman]

The 3rd hole on The Ocean Course has many similar characteristics as the 10th at Riviera.
-About 330 from the tips
-Green not quite as angled but can be devilishly difficult from seemingly good position from the tee
-Back of the green slopes away ever so slightly making it very risky to fly the ball beyond the sublt transition fvrom front to back

[Bill Shotzbarger]

The 5th at Torresdale-Frankford CC (Philadelphia, PA - Ross 1922). 323 yards. Although the layup is played to a valley that rises back up to the green, the hole is net downhill from tee to green. Picture taken from halfway down the hill to the second of a split fairway.

I've seen every score from 2 to 8 made by those who go for the green. Green is narrow and steeply pitched from back to front.

[Josh Tarble]

Isn't the green sloping away a key element of the hole? That seems like the confounding part because a player needs to have a full shot with spin to get it close.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Isn't the green sloping away a key element of the hole? That seems like the confounding part because a player needs to have a full shot with spin to get it close.

I don't know, is it? That's why I asked what the elements of the template were. I haven't been watching any golf this weekend either. 

[Josh Tarble]

Heads up for TV watchers, leaders' groups are starting on 10 right now.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom, the 7th at Riverfront due to the ball and the driver probably plays differently than you conceived back in the early to mid 90's.

Today, it would be drivable, though I don't play with that caliber of player.  

Played by 99.5% it is a straight drive, avoiding shallow but multi-edged bunkers and an 80 yard pitch from a fairway that has more movement to it than you would think on a "flat" course to a small target punch bowl green that runs away from all faces.  For the 0.5%, the slight dog leg left can be cut and is drivable.  Though the putt, flop and or short pitch is no easy shot.

[Norbert P]

The par 5 #2 hole at Talking Stick North after the tee shot.

  

Also, though the holes don't play the same, the greens carry a similar angle entry concept . . .
#11 @ Bandon Dunes,OR
#12 Mid Pines, NC


  

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