Tom, I'm going to use quote bubbles here simply because you bring up a lot of points I believe need addressing. I don't want to make it seem like a debate, but more a healthy discussion.
I still don't think there are hundreds of courses worth restoring. What's driving the restoration industry is desperation, on the part of many out-of-work architects, and vanity, on the part of many club members [WE have a DONALD ROSS course, too!].
100% on the desperation part and we can see the results of those that are using the gimmick of the word restoration to power the work they no longer have: RIVIERA is a perfect example, but now, I think the persons responsible for that mess see that there is only one way to disguise it and say its renovation, thus actually destroying the masterpiece they once had. By chance, did you get to see any of that same person's work at Winged Foot? I did, and I was shocked, dismayed and saddened. What's worse is now we have Merion to mourn as well as the greatest course of the all--the very one that drive you and I to our love and passion for this great art--THE Old Course of St. Andrews, all done by rank amateurs with little to no insight other then to strengthen. Its a dirty word.
But, I think your selling short those that would like to see their courses brought back to life by those that care and know where the greatness lies in the ground and know that there are the "right" people out there to get it back. I've met many a passionate and driven member that will go to no end to show his fellow members that they made mistakes and there is a place to recover from them. They are out there doing there best to get it done, even if it means getting lambasted as the club lunatic and treated harshly to the point of wanting to leave their club. But these are resilient people and they still fight on for architectural greatness at their club's. One of them is even a woman whose driven to restoring the greatness. I've got to tell you how impressive it is to see her in action!
Having people passionate about their golf courses and restoring the elements that made them fun and entertaining designs is a good thing I would think. They just need the right people to get it going. And once again, I disagree with you. I think every course with the name Raynor, Ross, Macdonald, MacKenzie, Hunter, Thomas, Bell, Watson, Macbeth, Egan, Macan, Dunn et. al. should be restored and we should be reading whats in the ground as a testament to the greatness.
I do think it's important to have a handful of examples of each architect's best work. It's too bad that so many of the guys whose names you listed have had all of their work destroyed, and it's too bad that hardly anyone is out there trying to restore the best of it. I've been to Woodland Hills and Palos Verdes CC, for example, and if they were once great courses, they've done a great job of hiding it between then and now ... neither would even get a 5 in The Confidential Guide today.
Tom, This is where both you and your book have failed. As much as that book inspired a lot of us and gave us the legs which to stand, there are many faults to the book; many courses where you didn't see all of the course, yet rated them. Also, the subject and the opinions are always varied. Look at us on this thread!
At the time you rated Lundin Golf Club I think it was a four or something well short of the mark. Then, you admitted to me on this very site that you only saw four holes! Yet, here on this fabled grounds were some of the most influential golf holes which Charles Blair Macdonald would use as inspiration for his designs in America, which you would later revisit and design a golf course in his honor using the same tools of inspiration.
Hmmmm? ? ? ? ? Inspiration? ? ? ? ? Maybe just maybe there is something to see and learn with these courses, or, are you shutting yourself off now to the learning process? I hope not! I know I will never do that till the day I close my eyes.
You yourself have to admit that what existed at Lundin had
devolved horribly, yet the bones were there to see the greatness of what Macdonald saw--I mean, come on! You even got Mike Kaiser and Uncle George Bahto to go there with you!
And one can see this same thing at what is left of our West Coast courses. You have good people driven to make bring it out. I think it would be far better to help drive the industry of good people capable of doing the work--a positive for you then put it down. This is why all golf courses that any of us should see as worthy, deserve restoration. and most, honestly, do you really want to be the judge and juror to this?
If there was such a great legacy of golf architectural thought out west, I can't quite understand how all you enlightened west-coasters allowed it to be lost after the Depression, but that's another story.
Tom, How did Lido die? Timber Point and the others during this harrowing time in our world's history? When you say "enlightened west coasters" it makes me realize your smugness and arrogance, or what fame and success has done to you. I think I could, myself, go on any course in the world; on any coast in the world and appreciate the architecture at any level--its what I love and I used to think you did too. Now, I'm not so sure.
This makes it even more confusing when thinking that you used an open mind while writing the critical commentary in the Confidential Guide. Like I said earlier, there are many faults in that book. Still it remains one of my most prized because its not only a great book because of your insight on courses you did actually write about with passion but also allows me to now see exactly what you don't know and should. None of us are perfect! It also makes me appreciate Ran's write ups that much more.
Tom, I say this with all due respect and honesty: You have the power to influence many with your knowledge and intellect into the art. You educated me with your writings and our camaraderie in the past. I'm pointing this stuff out to prove to you what you are seemingly no longer capable of seeing or simply don't want to see. Just like our West Coast courses that only an assorted few can be seen in photographs and what little, but still valuable evidence that is still in the ground. That is after all the brain candy for guys like you and me--what's in the ground. The same use of what's in the ground at places like Palos Verdes and Woodland Hills. Its there.
Donald Ross and his associates (Ellis Maples, George McGovern, Orrin Smith, Walter Hatch, etc.)
C.B. Macdonald and his associates (Seth Raynor, Charles Banks)
A.W. Tillinghast
George C. Thomas (though he did only the one course out East)
Harry Colt
Hugh Alison
Alister MacKenzie
Perry Maxwell (and the Wood Brothers who built his courses)
George Crump
Herbert Leeds
William Fownes (and his superintendent)
Hugh Wilson
William Flynn (and his young associate, Dick Wilson)
Fred Hood
John Duncan Dunn
Walter Travis
Devereux Emmet
Wayne Stiles
John Van Kleek
Willie Park, Jr.
Robert White (one of Tom MacWood's faves - I have no clue if he designed anything or not)
Herbert Strong
I think this is really beside the point, though. What matters is the courses that got in the ground, not who built them. When you concentrate on who built them, you're projecting about the quality of the work, unless you've got the pictures to prove it.
Tom, There were a few points to listing. The main thing was to list how many of the same guys you listed, that I listed, and I didn't even put down Seth Raynor on purpose, despite two courses in Hawaii and no courses completed, only planned in California. You see, they moved out here; They settled here; they worked here and eventually died here, or close to died here. (In the case of Tillinghast who then moved in with is daughter in Ohio for the last year or two of his life) These minds of great influence in the classic Golf Architecture we love.
Compare out list, we have six, but you forgot Fowler and his masterful work at Eastward Ho! so that's seven; If I would have included Raynor or Allison (who was doing work in Japan and stayed out of California, simply because of MacKenzie, well, I think you can get my point. n some ways today its no different then you or Rees Jones in China, where you went were the work was or where it carried you. But in California, the all moved out here for various reasons. Hunter was teaching at Cal I believe, Thomas to grow roses year round; MacKenzie, whether it was to get out of town to evade a jealous husband or wife or simply because he saw a vast landscape that was worthy of great golf and could yield a crop like Cypress Point, Pasatiempo or The Valley Club. You had a Max Behr, who was the most vocal if not influential voice with his Golf Illustrated magazine, who after losing his wife to Influenza, picked up his young son and daughter and moved out West and tarted finally getting to prove his theories in the ground. Tom we are talking some very bright and intellectual people that became "enlightened west coasters."
Some of these very same people would go on to write the most definitive books ever on the subject. Are you going to now discount them also?
The fact was it was getting done out here in the Enlightened West, Australia, Japan and even in Hawaii, then a depression, world war, redevelopment and simply old age and illness stop this movement dead in its tracks here in the United States. It ended faster then it got started with no one left to drive the car. And that's why it can barely be seen today. To me, that tragedy in golf is far more enlightening in what can happen. I've had a front row seat to see what is left being destroyed on a day to day basis every time Fazio's Tom Marzlotov gets off of a plane at LAX. And that's the point, what can you do to stop it!?!?
Just curious -- of all the NLE courses you listed, which of them do you think might have got a 7 or higher in The Confidential Guide if I'd seen them in their heyday?
Tom, if its O.K. with you, I'd like to take a brief rest here for a bit, not because I can't produce a list full of El Cabellero's and Royal Palms. I have to get some work done. But I promise that I will list for you all of the courses that were worthy, what is left and what will never be again, as well as how technology would have deemed a lot of them obsolete, even for an amateur.