[Jason Thurman]

I recently had a friend tell me he thinks all par 3s should be under 180 yards or so because he doesn't like hitting long irons. If we assume that anything over 280 or so is a short par 4, that would mean that he thinks holes between 180 and 280 yards are off-limits.

I'm guessing most of the forum would disagree with him. But are there yardages between 100 and 600 yards that don't work well for golf holes? What's the most unusual hole yardage that you've seen?

I've only played one hole between 255 and 290 yards. That was the 9th at Jeff Brauer's Woodland Hills in Nebraska, and it's one of my favorite short par 4s anywhere. I'd like to see more holes of this distance, though I can see the issue: as a par 4 many good players will call it "too easy," while as a par 3 many weaker players will call it "ridiculously long." Are those complaints legit?

[Jason Connor]

he doesn't like hitting long irons.

Has he heard of hybrids?

Or forward tees?

[Tom Culley]

My home course is a 9 hole course has only 1 hole over 300 yards. It is quite interesting because there are short par 4s that are easier to make 3 on than some of the long par 3s.

The 9th hole at our course is a par 3 of 220yards and plays up hill. Many would say that it is too long for the majority of players, however in my opinion as the hole is stroke index 3/4, there are only a handful of players that are expected to hit the green and make par, and therefore it is a perfectly fine hole for everyone. Is there a case for considering handicaps when designing holes like this?

T.

[Richard Choi]

Why doesn't he just play longer par 3's as short par 4's?

I just don't get why people get so hung up on pars. It is just a number. What makes a hole great/interesting should not be dependent on what the par number is.

[Sean_A]

My home course is a 9 hole course has only 1 hole over 300 yards. It is quite interesting because there are short par 4s that are easier to make 3 on than some of the long par 3s.

The 9th hole at our course is a par 3 of 220yards and plays up hill. Many would say that it is too long for the majority of players, however in my opinion as the hole is stroke index 3/4, there are only a handful of players that are expected to hit the green and make par, and therefore it is a perfectly fine hole for everyone. Is there a case for considering handicaps when designing holes like this?

T.

Tom

This is backward logic.  The hole was built, then the stroke index was added.  Maybe it was originally thought to be a good 4 for most golfers in the mind of the archie?  Anyway, I don't think stroke index shouldn't be cited for architectural purposes or explanations.  On courses such as yours, I don't think "rules" apply.  Lets call it the Painswickian Model or Anything Goes.

I am not a big fan of the long par 3 either.  About 200 yards is where I would ideally cap the yardage, but there are always exceptions.

Ciao  

[Paul Gray]

Why doesn't he just play longer par 3's as short par 4's?

I just don't get why people get so hung up on pars. It is just a number. What makes a hole great/interesting should not be dependent on what the par number is.

Exactly.

Historically only the very best of players could get up in regulation on the longest of par 3's anyway. An 18 handicapper not being able to hit the green in regulation does not make a hole bad. Anyone whinging about a par 3 in excess of 180 yards needs to either accept his own limitations or push on with those lessons. Golf is a game of humility.

If everyone wants to be in with a chance of shooting par, best we all go play pitch and putt courses.

[Ronald Montesano]

handicaps should never be considered. the golf hole is as it lays. play somewhere else if you don't like the holes.

jason, is your friend new to the game? if not, how many years experience and how dedicated?

personally, there are no off-limits yardages for me. however, i would suggest that certain terrain phenomena insinuate accomodations regarding yardages.

as many sages have said, moving up a tee deck always works.

[Sidney Lin]

I think your friend should become a customer of Taylor Made as their boss wants to keep him in the game with some new high tech balls, clubs, bags (yep surely a bag can make a ball go 10 metres further and get 447rpm more of spin???) and all the other stuff TM sells.

Here is a great advert for why technology should be left to flourish. Keep more players in the game!

Still waiting to see a pro reel off 4 straight rounds in the 50's to win a tournament... then the anti tech on tour guys may have an argument. Until then, keep up the R & D, the advertising, the investment and the promotion of our favourite game.

[Jason Thurman]

I don't want this thread to get too caught up on my friend's opinion. It's highly biased around his own abilities and ultimately irrelevant to the larger and hopefully more interesting discussion that it got me thinking about.

Are there ranges of yardages within the "normal" spectrum of golf holes (which I'm defining as 100-600 yards) that, for one reason or another, don't work as well for creating compelling golf holes?

Why aren't there more holes of 250-290 yards? Almost every course has a 300 yard hole these days, and it seems like most also have a 220-230 yard hole. But I don't see many holes in between. Is it exclusively a by-product of the "par" mentality and a resultant discomfort with half-par holes, or is there more to it? I think it's the latter, but I'd like to hear what others think first.

[Jud_T]

Jason.  #13 at Kingsley tips out at 285.  There aren't many better short 4's on the planet.  Doesn't elevation play a factor?  If the hole is uphill or downhill?  You could easily have a 250 yard drop shot "par 3" or a 270 yard uphill "par 4".  Granted on level ground 260 is an awkward distance for "par", but who cares if that's what the land dictates? Frankly I think we could use more Par 3 1/2's rather than less.

[Josh Tarble]

At Streamsong, Red #9 is only 270 yards from the black tees.  It was the hardest hole on the front 9 in my opinion.  Only 1 par out of our group and 3 double bogies or worse.  It was incredibly designed.  Multiple plays would surely make it a bit easier, but with one it was incredibly hard.

I think it's a mentality not necessarily total with relation to par, but with difficulty as well.  When someone sees a 240 yard par 3, they immediately think it will be very difficult, exact opposite with a 270 yard par 4.

I believe that when a hole represents the opposite of that thinking, it becomes a very memorable hole.

[Jud_T]

Josh,

Red 9 looks like it's 312 from all the way back...

http://www.streamsongresort.com/images/pdf/golf-scorecard-sctreamsong-red.pdf

[Tom_Doak]

One of the features I'd include on a course for the Tour players [if I ever get to build one] is to utilize more of these awkward hole lengths ... I would have holes at 250 yards and 280 and 310 and 340, so that every player regardless of their length off the tee would have to play one hole that's just awkwardly within range of a 3-wood or driver, and one hole that's just awkwardly out of range of the driver (though it would be different holes for different players).

I used to avoid holes of that length, but I've found that I love them when they are done right.  At Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach we wound up with some great ones by accident, because I was thinking of the lengths in metric, and not realizing that the 12th at Barnbougle was only 273 yards and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach around the same number.

I would expect, however, that a lot of clients would have hang-ups with me including holes at these lengths.  I've had clients in the past tell me they didn't want any par-3's more than 210 or 220 yards, and others say they didn't want any par-3's UNDER 150 yards from the back tee -- which doesn't leave you a lot of range in between to vary them.  We've gotten more leeway on short par-4's from recent clients, only because I can point to similar-length holes at Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle and Ballyneal that they like.

[Dave McCollum]

When I first saw the 10th hole on my home course, I laughed and thought it was the dumbest hole I’d ever seen.  A 290 yard par 4 playing down hill and, mostly, downwind.  Filled with quirks, including a house-sized boulder in the middle of the fairway 200 yards out.  Danger 230 degrees around the green and tricky lies around the rest.  Now it’s one of my favorite holes because there are so many ways to play it depending on conditions, where the pin is, and the state of the match.  I’ve seen more playing strategies employed on this hole than any other.  I’ve seen plenty of eagles and birdies and more doubles or worse.  It’s been aced a few times.

On the rare occasions I get into a chat about architecture with an average golfer, I often cite this hole as an example of good architecture being about options.  Personally, I’ve played every club between a 7 iron and a driver off the tee.  How do I usually play it?  Well, it depends…

[Sven Nilsen]

At Streamsong, Red #9 is only 270 yards from the black tees.  It was the hardest hole on the front 9 in my opinion.  Only 1 par out of our group and 3 double bogies or worse.  It was incredibly designed.  Multiple plays would surely make it a bit easier, but with one it was incredibly hard.

I think it's a mentality not necessarily total with relation to par, but with difficulty as well.  When someone sees a 240 yard par 3, they immediately think it will be very difficult, exact opposite with a 270 yard par 4.

I believe that when a hole represents the opposite of that thinking, it becomes a very memorable hole.

Sounds like 14 at Bandon Trails.

[Michael Moore]

At Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach we wound up with some great ones by accident, because I was thinking of the lengths in metric, and not realizing that the 12th at Barnbougle was only 273 yards and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach around the same number.

I love this kind of detail, so thanks for confessing to it. It must be difficult to sell a client on randomness, and I wonder if it indeed may have to come through in a strange and barely conscious manner.

[Josh Tarble]

Josh,

Red 9 looks like it's 312 from all the way back...

http://www.streamsongresort.com/images/pdf/golf-scorecard-sctreamsong-red.pdf

I doubt many people are playing the way back tees...several holes looked just brutal from there.

I actually think it may be a touch easier from the way back tees though, might be more apt to lay further back.  After one play, the ideal play may be trying to hit it OVER the green and playing back to it, but I'm still unsure.

[Bill_McBride]

I have played golf holes from 85 to 780 yards over the years and enjoyed them all.  The architect's number one tool isn't length, it's making the player uncertain and uncomfortable about the shot at hand. 

[Garland Bayley]

THERE ARE NO YARDAGES THAT ARE OFF-LIMITS!

[Ronald Montesano]

Yay...scrolling text is back...welcome to web 0.1 circa 1999

[Wade Whitehead]

Why does your friend play golf?

WW

[jeffwarne]

One of the features I'd include on a course for the Tour players [if I ever get to build one] is to utilize more of these awkward hole lengths ... I would have holes at 250 yards and 280 and 310 and 340, so that every player regardless of their length off the tee would have to play one hole that's just awkwardly within range of a 3-wood or driver, and one hole that's just awkwardly out of range of the driver (though it would be different holes for different players).

I used to avoid holes of that length, but I've found that I love them when they are done right.  At Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach we wound up with some great ones by accident, because I was thinking of the lengths in metric, and not realizing that the 12th at Barnbougle was only 273 yards and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach around the same number.

I would expect, however, that a lot of clients would have hang-ups with me including holes at these lengths.  I've had clients in the past tell me they didn't want any par-3's more than 210 or 220 yards, and others say they didn't want any par-3's UNDER 150 yards from the back tee -- which doesn't leave you a lot of range in between to vary them.  We've gotten more leeway on short par-4's from recent clients, only because I can point to similar-length holes at Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle and Ballyneal that they like.

You get a LOT of holes in the 250-340 range in the UK/Ireland , especially on the off the beaten path courses that haven't been "modernized"
What I like about a lot of them is many were built as drive and pitch holes so they didin't go crazy with strategy or overdo the risk in risk/reward.
Sure I like a strategic short par 4, but sometimes it's nice to play a hole that you can gave a rip at without feeling like it's a sucker play (a par 3 1/2)

[Paul Gray]

One of the features I'd include on a course for the Tour players [if I ever get to build one] is to utilize more of these awkward hole lengths ... I would have holes at 250 yards and 280 and 310 and 340, so that every player regardless of their length off the tee would have to play one hole that's just awkwardly within range of a 3-wood or driver, and one hole that's just awkwardly out of range of the driver (though it would be different holes for different players).

I used to avoid holes of that length, but I've found that I love them when they are done right.  At Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach we wound up with some great ones by accident, because I was thinking of the lengths in metric, and not realizing that the 12th at Barnbougle was only 273 yards and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach around the same number.

I would expect, however, that a lot of clients would have hang-ups with me including holes at these lengths.  I've had clients in the past tell me they didn't want any par-3's more than 210 or 220 yards, and others say they didn't want any par-3's UNDER 150 yards from the back tee -- which doesn't leave you a lot of range in between to vary them.  We've gotten more leeway on short par-4's from recent clients, only because I can point to similar-length holes at Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle and Ballyneal that they like.

You get a LOT of holes in the 250-340 range in the UK/Ireland , especially on the off the beaten path courses that haven't been "modernized"
What I like about a lot of them is many were built as drive and pitch holes so they didin't go crazy with strategy or overdo the risk in risk/reward.
Sure I like a strategic short par 4, but sometimes it's nice to play a hole that you can gave a rip at without feeling like it's a sucker play (a par 3 1/2)

Absolutely agree Jeff.

Those holes in the 250 to 340 yard bracket tend to be the ones that stick in my mind after visiting a course for the first time.

For me it's all about variety. Thinking back to my childhood on the links, I used to play a 10th hole at 270 yards, 11th at 157 yards and 12th at 444 yards. Conventional wisdom for some these days would perhaps be to work with such lengths where the 10th would be into the wind and the 12th against it. However, the opposite was true and the nett result was balanced. The prevailing wind dictated that the 11th could occasionally require as much club as the 10th and the 12th was unreachable in two for just about anyone. In effect then, walking away with 3,3,5 felt like very solid par golf.

[Rich Goodale]

My home course has a 245 yard uphill hole with no hazards on the direct line to the green that good players think they should at least get a birdie and hackers pray for a par.  It is amazing how many good players bogey that hole and how many hackers get birdie.  Every course should have such a hole.

[Matthew Petersen]

There are plenty of good arguments here for why you shouldn't put anything "off limits," but another is that you can't anticipate how the game will change over the decades and how the hole will come to be played years from now.

Looks at all the nice drive and pitch par 4s built by ODGs that are now getting a whole new life as potentially reachable holes for today's long hitters.

Or look at a modern reachable par 4 like #17 at TPC Scottsdale Stadium. It was built to be reachable 25 years ago, now many PGA players find driver might be too much club. It's now functioning a bit like the kind of hole Tom Doak said he'd love to build for the pros. One where they are between driver and 3-wood, and so have that to think about as well as all the hazards built around the green.

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