Streamsong knocks it out of the Ballpark!

[Rick Shefchik]

Sean --

"Comparable product" is the key here. Is there a comparable product to Streamsong in Florida? Admittedly I have played very few high-end Florida courses, but I'm reasonably convinced there's nothing available to me in Florida that directly compares to the links-style Coore-Crenshaw and Doak courses at Streamsong.

[Jerry Kluger]

Rick: I agree that Streamsong is unique and special but cost is certainly a factor in whether or not you are going to go back. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Rick: I agree that Streamsong is unique and special but cost is certainly a factor in whether or not you are going to go back. 

Price is a legal, clean form of discrimination.  I doubt if the owners of Streamsong want all of us back.  There is a reason they have a private airstrip and not a port for the latest Carnival Cruise. 

People who enjoy fine dinning do not want to spend an evening with slobbering poorly dressed fat people.  One way they do this is by serving ridiculously small portions at inflated prices.  Sure they throw in a few extra courses but never enough for a guy like me.  It is fair to me and my fat brothers and sisters....no.  Is it legal and successful....yes.  Can a fat slob have someone else call, or disguise their voice, and make a reservation...sure.  Will they go back...I doubt it.

Streamsong is just another private club that few of us can afford.  I know that I can't given the other golf choices I have made in my life.  That doesn't make it a poor business model.  It just makes it a private course without a membership committee that caters to a specific clientele.  These guys know exactly what they are doing.

[Chris DeNigris]

Sean- your above definition of value assumes a mostly homogenous product.

For the most part value is in the eye of the beholder- a very personal distinction.

As with most things, and with Streamsong- The market will sort it out.

[Sean_A]

Sean --

"Comparable product" is the key here. Is there a comparable product to Streamsong in Florida? Admittedly I have played very few high-end Florida courses, but I'm reasonably convinced there's nothing available to me in Florida that directly compares to the links-style Coore-Crenshaw and Doak courses at Streamsong.

Rick

Streamsong may be in FLA, but its gonna take serious airplane business to be successful.  Which speaks directly back to value if the resort doesn't want to be the one and done model. 

On another note, how many upscale US resorts can the golfing population support?  It seems to me that the boutique $250+ a game level is getting very crowded with options.   

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ode To A Hot Dog

The green fee's a pretty good deal,
but then we stopped in for a meal.
It's 12 bucks a dog,
a sad epilogue.
It wasn't the pig you heard squeal!



..Sorry  

[Mike Wagner]

Solution to all the complainers:

Go build your own golf (and/or hot dog stand) course and charge whatever you want.

[C. Squier]

Eric -exceptional post. I concur wholeheartedly, particularly when it comes to having stuff forced on us and the tail effectively wagging the dog as Mark Pearce so aptly put it in a recent thread on the Pinehurst walking policy. Let's hope the Streamsongs of this world take heed of your words and not become complacent - id like to think that it could turn a healthy profit whilst not destroying good will for all but the wealthiest of visitors.

If you have to rationalize whether a $12 hot dog is going to make or break your "good will", you can't afford the rest of the trip. 

Nothing is being forced on you. Don't go to Streamsong. Or if you do, don't eat. Or be "that guy" who stuffs his bag full of snacks from home. But for the love of all that is good, don't complain about being taken advantage of over a $12 hot dog while being so blessed that you're able to spend your leisure time and money playing golf.

Walk up to a homeless person and tell them, "can you believe that when I stayed at a brand new golf resort they made me pay $12 for lunch after I already spent $2000 of my discretionary income!" to really hear how silly the argument sounds.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Walk up to a homeless person and tell them, "can you believe that when I stayed at a brand new golf resort they made me pay $12 for lunch after I already spent $2000 of my discretionary income!" to really hear how silly the argument sounds.

Or you could just screw the golf and instead take 400 homeless guys up to Gray's Papaya and buy them all lunch for $2,000.  

[Mike Sweeney]

Sean --

"Comparable product" is the key here. Is there a comparable product to Streamsong in Florida? Admittedly I have played very few high-end Florida courses, but I'm reasonably convinced there's nothing available to me in Florida that directly compares to the links-style Coore-Crenshaw and Doak courses at Streamsong.

I think World Woods is comparable for now, especially the week that I played SS when the clubhouse rooms were still being worked on. WW and Streamsong are basically for day trippers today.

When the lodge opens at Streamsong, pricing will probably change from a simple standpoint of increased supply of rooms on property from 12 to 224.

I would rate WW Pine Barrens ahead of Red and behind Blue. I have not played Rolling Oaks as I never want to miss WWPB when I am there. I have played both courses at SS and I will heavily favor The Blue on repeat visits.

The practice facility at WW blows away just about anything anywhere and I love the short course at WW. I had a frost delay on WWPB and things got backed up so they sent us out on the short course to kill time while the first tee cleared. No charge.

I had a frost delay the first day at Streamsong and they offered us coffee and a muffin and charged us $20 ! As they say at Disney, a missed Magical Moment!

World Woods is $99 today for a morning tee time and $49 for an afternoon tee time on Rolling Oaks.

I know a group of semi-retired players with money that played Mountain Lake and Streamsong last week and the feeling was that SS was a great place, expensive and the courses were probably in the 8-12 range of each architect's portfolio. This is a testament to the architects portfolio. This group is VERY well traveled, and nobody has ever accused Mountain Lake of being inexpensive, so that was surprising.

I know WW has some condos off-property, but if I was WW I would build some Sand Hills style cabins on property right now. It would give golfers a clear choice between two Central Florida 36 hole facilities with different styles of lodging and architecture at different price points.

If doing a Mountain Lake/SS/WW golf trip over 5 days I would split the rounds as:

3 ML
3 Blue
1 Red
2 WWPB
1 WWRO

Streamsong Blue is the National Golf Links of Florida with randomness that is not loved by all, but it is loved by me. Same for World Woods PB which is the Pine Valley of Florida. I love both styles but right now Streamsong is obviously today's favorite flavor. As stated recently by our friend in heaven Tiger Bernhardt, Mountain Lake may be the most fun course to play.

PS. Mr Whitaker and I will be having a looooong lunch next week in NYC when we compare notes. His views of The Blue were all wrong !  

[Cliff Hamm]

Given the price I would play WWPB infinitely more than SS.  $250 if you take a cart is not cheap.  I played Pac Dunes this fall and felt it was worth every penny.  Enjoyed SS Blue very much but did not feel it was close to PD.

My real purpose in posting is that in the past year or so someone bemoaned the fact that WW did not have a better clubhouse!!  I believe they desired better food, etc.  They now have their alternative. I guess that is called the free market place or no one is ever happy. For me I'll take WW and its spartan atmosphere where I'm sure a hot dog is under $4.

[Ben Kodadek]

I really don't think it's fair to compare World Woods and Streamsong to one another in 2013.  With the exception of geography, the two could not be more different. 

World Woods moves more and more in the direction of a municipal facility with each visit (about 5-6/year).  One would think that they would make some attempt to step up their game with the likely influx of Streamsong visitors this season.  Unfortunately, they are going backwards. 

If a hot dog is $12 at Streamsong, how much do they get for a Jello Shot?

I ask this because they are now advertising "JELLO SHOTS $1.50" on the beverage cart at World Woods.  That's the clientele they are after and that's the type they are getting. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Mr Whitaker and I will be having a looooong lunch next week in NYC when we compare notes. His views of The Blue were all wrong !  

I can't wait! If it is going to be that looooong we might better meet some place other than Johny's... they've only got about 15 stools and will shoo us out of there I'm sure.

[Chris DeNigris]

Mr Whitaker and I will be having a looooong lunch next week in NYC when we compare notes. His views of The Blue were all wrong !  

I can't wait! If it is going to be that looooong we might better meet some place other than Johny's... they've only got about 15 stools and will shoo us out of there I'm sure.

Might I suggest the Peacock Alley Bar and Lounge at the Waldorf.

You can get a dynamite club for $21 and the brisket burger is a steal at $29.

I know the chef- I think he would whip you up a Peacock-dog as a special request...

[Jud_T]

The brat at the 21 club bar is $14, probably a worthy comparison even if they're rent is a touch higher than SS...

[Mike Sweeney]

Might I suggest the Peacock Alley Bar and Lounge at the Waldorf.

Whit lived in Hell's Kitchen for a year and has a son living in Brooklyn. I can only take him to Hipster spots.

Correction, Whit take ME to the Hipster spots. 

[C. Squier]

I ask this because they are now advertising "JELLO SHOTS $1.50" on the beverage cart at World Woods.  That's the clientele they are after and that's the type they are getting. 

Lol....I never knew sorority girls were a target market in golf 

[Greg Tallman]

Given the price I would play WWPB infinitely more than SS.  $250 if you take a cart is not cheap.  I played Pac Dunes this fall and felt it was worth every penny.  Enjoyed SS Blue very much but did not feel it was close to PD.

My real purpose in posting is that in the past year or so someone bemoaned the fact that WW did not have a better clubhouse!!  I believe they desired better food, etc.  They now have their alternative. I guess that is called the free market place or no one is ever happy. For me I'll take WW and its spartan atmosphere where I'm sure a hot dog is under $4.

Cliff, I believe you are referencing a comment I made after visiting WW for the first time in probably 15 years. My original commen was simply... "Wow, nothing has changed..." not the carpet, not the chairs...seemingly nothing (expcept the conditions on the course which were well below what they were when I lived in the area). Better food was not the desire... a simple Diet Coke was the desire and one that was unfillfullied as "we have not run to the store this morning"... sorry but spartan may be a bit polite and the underlying point of my comments were that it will not be there forever operating that way. My guess is the elderly owner will leave it to his kids who will sell it and it will then have a chance. Nothing fancy is needed but a few upgrades are.

this thread may give the signing day thread a run for Notre Dame's money!

[Richard Choi]

A golf course has every right to charge whatever the price they believe their customers can support.

Equally, the said customer has every right to complain about it.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Headed down tomorrow with the Gentleman Mike Whittaker...wind is supposed to blow 20-30.  Might have to try these $12 hot dogs.

Pete and I played both the Red and Blue today. In between rounds we stopped for THE Hot Dog.

Here it is in all its glory!


It made Pete a very happy man!

That pickled pepper sword is worth at least $3.85 on its own. Plan accordingly

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

World Woods is $99 today for a morning tee time and $49 for an afternoon tee time on Rolling Oaks.

Maybe you missed the latest promotion from WW.  


"Starting Monday, February 18th, through the remainder of the month,

Sunday through Thursday $59 + tax, Second Round (same day) $35 + tax

Super Twilight Rate - everyday after 2:00 p.m.
for the rest of February $35 + tax

World Woods Grill Special: Red, White, & Blue PBR 2 for $5"  


You should really get out on RO, it's not quite PB, but it is interesting in its own right.  Totally different style with more adventurous greens.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The water must be good, the standard Florida lemon is missing. 

[Bryan Izatt]

A month ago I played Streamsong  Blue and WW Pine Barrens on back to back days.  I like quality golf experiences.  The two courses were comparable in architecture, conditioning, challenge and course aesthetics (although totally different aesthetics).  The price was around 4 to 1.  The off course experience was totally different, obviously, but that didn't bother me one iota.  I had the hot dog at WW (including drink and chips) for $6 or $7.  At Streamsong I bought nothing else other than the green fee.  As a retail golfer, my ideal world would be more WW's and fewer Streamsongs.  I don't need or want the luxury off course experience.  Too bad for me that too many developers who manage to build architecturally interesting and challenging and well conditioned courses feel the need to package them as luxury resorts at high price points.

[Mike Sweeney]

UPDATED LIST

The off-site comments are always the best here at GCA.com:

• "My recent Mountain Lake visit for one night was about 60% of the over night cost at The Song including caddies based on my memory.
• We had 32 inches of snow last week, I'm ready for some FL Sun!
• You waaaaay over-rate WWPB
• Royal Oaks is the better course on WW property.
• Red 9, Blue 1
• I thought that dog looked delicious
• I am officially not playing there now
• Disney Rules!
• We played the Red for the first time yesterday and really enjoyed it
• The Red Course blew me away.  Could be as good as Friars Head.
• I loved it (The Red) as well.  With the exception of #10 and possibly #1, I like or love all of the holes.  Can’t wait until Mike pipes in to tell you that you are wrong!

PS. To be fair, my wife said "Disney Rules", but the rest are current or former posters.

[Cory Lewis]

• Royal Oaks is the better course on WW property.

This one has to be Kyle.  It's one of the things we agree on.