The Match by Frost

[Bob_Huntley]

Would anyone tell me that if this was a match-play game, how on earth can Hogans score be considered a course record? It would seem as though Byron Nelson had a few birdies and if he did, were his birdies made before Hogan's?  If Byron was the first to birdie the hole then Ben was practicing and his score cannot be considered a course record.

There is nothing in my research on this matter that called for all four balls to be holed out.

I do believe  this book should be on the Fiction shelf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

I tend to agree with you.

Once your partner is in with a birdie your putt for birdie is irrelevant, with absolutely no pressure on you.

Those are called "newspaper" rounds

[Ronald Montesano]

I do believe  this book should be on the Fiction shelf.

It's not? Who moved it?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bob,

Have to agree with you, and so does the USGA, or so it seems:
 
The term "course record" is not defined in the Rules of Golf. However, it is generally accepted that a record score should be recognized as the official "course record" only if made in an individual stroke-play competition (excluding bogey, par or Stableford competitions) with the holes and tee-markers in their proper medal or championship positions.

As a practice, I wonder how many 'course records' are established this way?

[Mark Steffey]

would this mean that a public course (absent an annual club championship) would never be able to list a 'course record' proper unless they held a regional/state/tour type event at one point in their history?

[Ronald Montesano]

two course record stories:

Some famous pro always inquired as to the holder of the record. If a local Joan or Joe, he would come within one or two strokes, but not break it. If a fellow touring pro, he would give it a run.

Some course owners would rather have the touring pro be the author of the record. East of Buffalo, the Links of Ivy Ridge hosted a US Amateur qualifier 1 or 2 years after it opened. A young guy named Dustin Johnson shot 65 and voila...course record. Good break for them.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,
No.    

[jeffwarne]

would this mean that a public course (absent an annual club championship) would never be able to list a 'course record' proper unless they held a regional/state/tour type event at one point in their history?

or that a course record set when the USGA or tournament had decided to move a few markers up for variety (ladies tees at Torrey Pines, forward tees on par 5 at Olympic)?

or if the committee had deemed conditions such that the tees be moved forward-soft turf, wind?

Most Professional events I play on newer courses they don't sniff the way back tees, at least not until the last day, post cut, in the interest of getting the field around.

A course record should be just that-the lowest score shot from the back tees( if casual play) , regardless of format or "pressure", as long as they hole out everything. (which may not happen unless they are playing well early)
Just because someone has  a match going against another player shouldn't mean they can't shoot a course record.
Many course records have been established this way.
That's why they also have "competitive" course records.

Didn't really matter much back in the days of three sets of tees, now with 4, 5,6 sets of tees, you usually won't see many events at "back" tees all the way around
Should I start my equipment rant again

[Michael Whitaker]

Bob,

The Match is absolutely an historical novel. Your questioning of the facts is akin to the current flap about the movie Lincoln, where the author, Tony Kirshner, is being criticized for altering the facts of the congressional vote to abolish slavery. In the movie he has two representatives from Connecticut voting against the amendment to the constitution when in fact all four members of Connecticut's delegation voted in favor of the amendment. Kursher responded to the critics, "we adhered to time-honored and completely legitimate standards for the creation of historical drama, which is what 'Lincoln' is. I hope nobody is shocked to learn that I also made up dialogue and imagined encounters and invented characters."

Mike

[BCrosby]

A pretty reliable test for whether a book is a historical novel or straight history is whether you see lines like "Hogan thought...." or "Nelson worried... "

No historian worth his salt will claim to know what Hogan was thinking or what Nelson worried about. But if you are writing historical fiction you can make up stuff like that (and pretty much any anything else) if you think it will add to the drama of the historical event at the heart of the story. Your only constraint is if the added detail is historically plausible. Which is not a very high bar.

Good historical novels can be a fun read, however.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

The cast of characters is extremely fascinating, from Eddie Lowery to the four individual golfers, all have very interesting stories behind them.

[Kevin_Reilly]

or that a course record set when the USGA or tournament had decided to move a few markers up for variety (ladies tees at Torrey Pines, forward tees on par 5 at Olympic)?

There are categories of course records on the Lake course at Olympic given the different setups.  I don't know if that is the case at other tournament courses.

[Mark Steffey]

Bob,

The cast of characters is extremel fascinating, from Eddie Lowery to the four individual golfers, all have very interesting stories behind them.

if i could meet one person from golf's past who is no longer with us, i would pick Mr Lowrey.

[Bob_Huntley]

I find the Search App on GCA rather difficult to find what I need.

Some years ago I wrote something about the book and a couple of the principals in the event. Eddie Lowery was a friend of mine and was a co-sponsor of my membership into the R&A. George Coleman's daughter, Sarah, who spends half the year in Pebble Beach, is another friend, who gave me much information into her father’s relationship with Ben Hogan.

Long before the publication of The Match, somewhere about 1971, I got a call from Jack Westland to join him in a four ball at Cypress. Jack was a former Congressman from Washington State as well as the oldest man to win the U.S. Amateur. His partner was Art Bell, pro-Emeritus at Pebble Beach. My partner was Harvie Ward and what a partner he was. He was one of the best golfers with whom I have played. Art Bell had the yips at this stage of his life and Harvie would never concede a putt over a couple of feet. We won going away.

At drinks afterward I failed to make all of the questions that should have been asked of Ward, I will regret that to my dying day.

Bob

[Rick Shefchik]

Those of us who have written both fiction and history can only marvel at Frost's success at creating a hybrid of the two genres.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I find the Search App on GCA rather difficult to find what I need.

Some years ago I wrote something about the book and a couple of the principals in the event. Eddie Lowery was a friend of mine and was a co-sponsor of my membership into the R&A. George Coleman's daughter, Sarah, who spends half the year in Pebble Beach, is another friend, who gave me much information into her father’s relationship with Ben Hogan.

Was this the thread, Bob?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37921.0.html

[Paul Jones]

Can a book be labeled as "Based on a True Story" like movies do?

Paul

[Jeff Dawson]

I have resisted posting about this topic in the past but I guess enough time has passed by.  Mark and I became friends while he was researching the book.  Harvie and I were very close and I had the privilege to play his last round at Cypress Point and SFGC with him.  I also was with he and Ken Venturi on their last visit.  The Match is a difficult story to get correct.  The two players I heard the story from actually varied in the telling of the story and the details.  In fact I have been sworn to secrecy on exactly the details on the setting of the match.  Sometimes when stories of golf get told and retold gentlemen portray a version as to not offend others who may be offended by the truth.  Generally The Match is accurate in its description but as with any book or movie about an event that happened long ago liberties are taken with the details.  Enjoy the book for what it is.... a wonderful story of a legendary match between four friends.

[Paul Jones]

Jeff, I think you are spot on.  I would bet we would get different stories if we asked all four about the match before they died.  That is why I enjoyed the book and almost always take books as "Based on a True Story"

[David Ober]

Would anyone tell me that if this was a match-play game, how on earth can Hogans score be considered a course record? It would seem as though Byron Nelson had a few birdies and if he did, were his birdies made before Hogan's?  If Byron was the first to birdie the hole then Ben was practicing and his score cannot be considered a course record.

There is nothing in my research on this matter that called for all four balls to be holed out.

I do believe  this book should be on the Fiction shelf.

It should not be. All course records should be stroke play only, and I believe all clubs should have two course records: 1 for daily play, and 1 for tournament play, like this:

Course record: 61, Patrick Mucci

Competitive Course Record: 62, William Johnson, Nationwide Tour Monday Qualifying

Something like that....

[Matthew Mollica]

Bob - thank you for the recount of your match with Eddie, Art and Harvie. Just wonderful to read.

It is exactly this sort of post, the kind of which you have generated hundreds, which make me ask that you please pen an autobiography!

Matthew

[JSlonis]

Jeff,

During my college years at Campbell I used to travel down to Pine Needles to take lessons from Harvie. He was and probably always will be, one of the best ball strikers I've ever seen. I wish I realized at the time how lucky I really was to be able to spend so much time with him. He was a true character in every regard and a joy to be around. He loved being "Ole' Harv"!

[Lynn_Shackelford]

"Sometimes when stories of golf get told and retold gentlemen portray a version as to not offend others who may be offended by the truth."

Jeff absolutely correct.  For example Wilt Chamberlain once told me it was 25,000 women, not 20,000 women with whom he was with.  Some were married, some didn't want to be revealed and others just weren't worth mentioning!

[BCrosby]

Bob - thank you for the recount of your match with Eddie, Art and Harvie. Just wonderful to read.

It is exactly this sort of post, the kind of which you have generated hundreds, which make me ask that you please pen an autobiography!

Matthew

I second the Matthew's request.

Bob

[Jeff Dawson]

Jeff,

During my college years at Campbell I used to travel down to Pine Needles to take lessons from Harvie. He was and probably always will be, one of the best ball strikers I've ever seen. I wish I realized at the time how lucky I really was to be able to spend so much time with him. He was a true character in every regard and a joy to be around. He loved being "Ole' Harv"!

He was very much the character.  The one thing he was always able to do however was make everyone around him enjoy their time with him.  I once hosted him at Merion and it was rather hot.  He took a cart and really wasn't playing well at all.  I did't tell anyone he was there but word got around.  As we headed to the 14th tee four golf carts with members were waiting on us.  Harvie looked at me as to say wtf?  He hit driver utility to 10 feet.  Made the putt for three.  Winked at me and the crowd all drove in.  He always could put on a show.  On the 15th hole he was sitting in his cart in the middle of the fairway.  As I had ten times before, I reminded him that carts had to stay in the rough.  He smiled at me and said well if they throw you out at least you will have a Harvie Ward story to tell.  I miss him.