Golf Illustrated 1914-1915

[Chris_Clouser]

I hate to throw more logs on the fire but what about the work that the Wilson Brothers, Flynn, Thomas and supposedly Tillie did or interjected about on the course?  Were some of those items part of the original construction?  Were they post or pre Colt?  Or were they part of the recommendations made by Alison and then added to the course?  Or were they ideas that these guys just brought in and made the changes with the blessing of the heads of the club (Carr, Fownes, etc.)?  From talking with Tom Paul, it sounds as if the changes made by Maxwell were partially part of the Alison recommendations and partially not.  

This is just another reason that someone needs to do a comprehensive study and book about the design history of Pine Valley.  It would be the best book ever written on the topic of architecture.  It has everything mystery, intrigue and the dramatic climax.

[ChipOat]

So who put the D.A. in at #10 and when?

John Arthur Brown?

[TEPaul]

Chris:

Flynn, the Wilsons and Thomas all did architectural work there after Crump's death and of course long after Colt was there in 1913. Flynn and the Wilson's work was basically constructing and finishing up holes #12-15 that hadn't been built before Crump died but were all apparently done to his design plans with the apparent exception of a massive bunker near the left landing zone on #13. Flynn and Thomas did some of the work under the so-called 1921 Advisory Committee plan. Maxwell carried out the redo of #8 left green which had been approved with the Alison recommendations under the 1921 advisory committee but for some reason not done by Alison or to his design specs. #8 green is to Maxwell's specs. Right #9 green was built by Thomas and Flynn to Alison's specs and Maxwell redid left #9 green later.

Tillinghast who was around from the beginning claims credit for recommending the huge cross bunker on #7 and possibly also pointing out to Crump the advantage of the green site on the famous #13 which was well to the left of where the 13th green was planned. That green site decision basically finally allowed holes #12-15 to fall into place as they now are.

Alison redid greens #6, possibly some of #7, 11 and 17.

Chip:

The DA probably came into being before Crump died and after the entire fronting bunker face across the front of #10 slipped and collapsed which was the same fate as the massive fronting sand faces on #2 and #18.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chipoat;

I went through all my architectural research and books to find an answer to your very valid question, since it doesn't seem to be there in early pictures whether one wants to attribute the DA to Colt, Crump, Flynn, or any of the other human "collaborators".

Finally, I came across an old, dusty, weathered tome with no title, but which seemed to be some type of predecessor to Cornish & Whitten's work in the 70s and 80s.  It listed courses built during the golden age, and showed architectural attribution, although the book doesn't list the author, date of publication, publisher, or any of the other normal Library of Congress info.

But, I found the following listing somewhat telling;

Pine Valley Golf Club - Clementon, NJ
George Crump/Harry Colt 1914-18, Hugh Wilson/Charles Alison 1921, Satan 1923, William Flynn 1929, Perry Maxwell 1933

Hope this helps!
  

[GeoffreyC]

That is one striking photo of #10 at PV and its clear that the DA is absent.  If I'm not mistaken there is a photo of #10 in Geoff Shakleford's Golden age book where the DA is a shallow pit. I don't have the book with me but the date of that photo should be helpful.  It seems to have evolved from no bunker to a shallow one to it current namesake. Perhaps Arthur Brown sold his soul and was forced to build the pit over a period of time in return for his reign over the place for so long.

[Paul_Turner]

Geoff

We were thinking of the same pic.  It's on page 60, but no date.  

Hunter's "The Links" shows a similar little pit and this was published in 1926, although the pic could be earlier.  It's certainly earlier than the pic in Shackelford's book, because there are no shrubs/trees behind the hole.

Page 59 in Shackelford's book also shows the 10th, but it's difficult to see if the DA is there or not, it's obscured by scrub.  This pic is dated as 1922, but I pretty certain that's incorrect-it's much earlier, at around 1916.

[TEPaul]

Truth be told Alan Wilson always had one helluva lot more to do with Pine Valley than Hugh did. And he, not Hugh, was also a member of that very important 1921 Advisory Committee. Alan, like Hugh also developed into one of the most knowledgeable agronomic minds in the country certainly in an experimental sense.

[TEPaul]

I'd say the photo on GeoffShac's p. 59 has to be around 1916 or perhaps even 1914-15 particularly if it happened to be in the Golf Illustrated of that time frame. On p 59 the hole's surroundings appear to be still under some form of continuing construction as there seems to be some sand formations behind the green which probably changed. The trees to the right of the green appear to be 6-8 years younger too and the tree behind the green and the vegetation behind the green weren't there in the p. 59 photo. The walkway off the tee is unusual too as it's at the tee's grade for a distance--that's not the way it is now.

Hole #10 seems to be generally attributed to Colt. That'd make some sense to me since it appears before Colt arrived Crump may have had a hole iteration beginning near the clubhouse and playing the tee shot over the valley between the clubhouse to the ridge where the present 9th green now is with a green site which appears a bit to the right of the present 10th green.

[Paul_Turner]

George A Crump?

[TEPaul]

Paul;

What's the possibility of putting a semi-accurate date on that photo? That person isn't very likely George Crump, but it's a fascinating photo of a hole in the midst of construction--certainly does indicate a lot about the soil structure of PVGC.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

It was published in Aug 1914, but obviously it could be earlier (I think it is).

Everything is so sandy without the trees.  No wonder they had some difficulty getting grass to take hold.  I believe Macdonald predicted this quite early on, he said something like "it'll be a great course, if they get grass to grow!"

[TEPaul]

"I believe Macdonald predicted this quite early on, he said something like "it'll be a great course, if they get grass to grow!""

Paul:

Charles Macdonald definitely knew what he was talking about after the near total agronomic failures at early NGLA.

I'd bet that photo was taken in the fall of 1913.