[Ronald Montesano]

Which is it? List your reasons (challenge, memory, setting, best bell...)

[Andy Troeger]

Pete Dye GC (WV) by a hair over The Golf Club (OH).

PDGC wins for me because there are so many interesting holes over a dramatic piece of property. The 2nd is one of his all-time best and my favorite hole on the course, and #5, 8, and 10 are up there as well. I didn't find any poor holes, although I could see an argument that #17 green is overdone. Its tough, but I would believe very playable once you figure out where to hit it and where not to hit it. Its not necessary a "natural" look, but I think it works.

[Tommy Williamsen]

His most inventive is Whistling Straights.  His best may be the Ocean Course.  I like PDGG and the Golf Club but think they have to take a lesser ranking.

[Greg Tallman]

Of those I ahve played that might be in the discussion

1. Kiawah
2. PDGC
3. Sawgrass
4. Long Cove

I am sure I have played a good many more but off the top of my head that is my "contribution"

[Tom_Doak]

Most of those mentioned are good choices, but I'll stick with Teeth of the Dog and The Golf Club as his top two.

[Ronald Montesano]

The reason for this thread is the subtle groundswell of support for The Golf Club. Now just past its 45th birthday, the course seems to have aged well. I've played neither TGC nor TOTD, so my nominee will come from another layout.

[Greg Tallman]

Most of those mentioned are good choices, but I'll stick with Teeth of the Dog and The Golf Club as his top two.

LOL How ddi I leave Teeth off? I would put it 2 or 3.

For obvious reasons I compare Teeth with our Ocean Course all the time. It seems apaprent you think Teeth far superior, why?

Ocean front holes? CDS
Interior? CDS
Par 3s? CDS
Par 4s? CDS
Par 5s? TOD

I know you are a Dye guy but...

[Bart Bradley]

Perhaps my vote should be excluded because I haven't played Teeth of the Dog or The Golf Club.

Channeling Matt Ward:  "I have played 30+ Pete Dye Courses":

Of those I have seen, Kiawah Ocean course is my favorite by a reasonable margin over Whistling Straits, Blackwolf and The Honors.

Headed to TPC Sawgrass in 4 days  .

Bart

[Paul Jones]

How is TPC Louisiana not mentioned in this thread

[Sam Morrow]

How is TPC Louisiana not mentioned in this thread

Or Belle Terre?

[Mac Plumart]

Critics would say it would have to be one of these...

Whistling Straits;
Kiawah Ocean;
The Golf Club;
TPC Sawgrass;
Harbour Town;
Teeth of the Dog.

But you can't sleep on Crooked Stick, PDGC of WV or The Honors Course.

And Blackwolf Run River and Long Cove don't look to shabby either.

Heck, Oak Tree National gets some love from the critics...as does French Lick.

Dye is one of the greats!

[Paul Jones]

How is TPC Louisiana not mentioned in this thread

Or Belle Terre?

Belle Terre? Glad to hear I wasn't only one to waste 4 hours, misery loves company.

[Sam Morrow]

How is TPC Louisiana not mentioned in this thread

Or Belle Terre?

Belle Terre? Glad to hear I wasn't only one to waste 4 hours, misery loves company.

Dad and I played it once, afterwards he yelled at me for picking the course.

[Tom_Doak]

Most of those mentioned are good choices, but I'll stick with Teeth of the Dog and The Golf Club as his top two.

LOL How ddi I leave Teeth off? I would put it 2 or 3.

For obvious reasons I compare Teeth with our Ocean Course all the time. It seems apaprent you think Teeth far superior, why?

Ocean front holes? CDS
Interior? CDS
Par 3s? CDS
Par 4s? CDS
Par 5s? TOD

I know you are a Dye guy but...

And being on payroll for the other side is not a bias?  

I don't think Teeth of the Dog is "far" superior, but I do rate it higher than Cabo del Sol.  

I will admit that when I do hole-by-hole match-ups of Cabo del Sol with other courses, it usually comes out better than I expect, and that's why it's still got my vote for the top 100, even though I can't profess to really LIKING it that much.  I've thought for years about why that is, and I've come up with two answers.

First, though both courses are housing developments, the tropical vegetation at Casa de Campo does a lot better job of hiding the development areas than the desert vegetation at Cabo del Sol (or anywhere in Arizona).  There is just more variety of texture and color in the landscape, and denser vegetation to screen things when you want them screened.

Second, what makes Teeth of the Dog stand out for me is exactly what most modern courses don't have -- golf features that were built at the human scale.  The bunkering and green contouring elements at Teeth of the Dog are very different from most of Mr. Dye's other works, because they were built by hand, by a bunch of Dominican laborers.  So you get little random knobs, or the waste bunker on the 10th hole that narrows down to about three feet wide at one point.  Those features give the course a certain style that is more like Myopia Hunt Club than anything built in the last 50 or 75 years.

Whereas, Cabo del Sol, like nearly all Nicklaus courses [and ALSO like many Pete Dye courses that I don't rate as highly among Pete's work], is built at the scale of a D-6.  In fact, the upper holes are all benched into the slope artificially at D-8 scale, like Whistling Straits or Pete Dye Golf Club, which divorces them from the natural contours of the ground, and makes them seem a bit sterile.  It was actually a friend from Asia who clued me into this; pretty much every course in Asia is that way.  It doesn't ruin the course for me, but it makes me much less fond of those upper holes of yours than you are, whether they are good strategic holes or not.

Sorry, most of that is OT, but your marketing department would probably prefer that it's on a thread about Pete Dye courses, anyway.

[Greg Tallman]

Most of those mentioned are good choices, but I'll stick with Teeth of the Dog and The Golf Club as his top two.

LOL How ddi I leave Teeth off? I would put it 2 or 3.

For obvious reasons I compare Teeth with our Ocean Course all the time. It seems apaprent you think Teeth far superior, why?

Ocean front holes? CDS
Interior? CDS
Par 3s? CDS
Par 4s? CDS
Par 5s? TOD

I know you are a Dye guy but...

And being on payroll for the other side is not a bias?   Absolutely no chance 

I don't think Teeth of the Dog is "far" superior, but I do rate it higher than Cabo del Sol.  

I will admit that when I do hole-by-hole match-ups of Cabo del Sol with other courses, it usually comes out better than I expect, and that's why it's still got my vote for the top 100, even though I can't profess to really LIKING it that much.  
Have talked with others who come to a similar conclusion and to be honest one that divulged his hole by hole of the two courses we are are comparing... is this not a good way to compare "like courses" (ocenafront) or courses on cusp of your personal list??

I've thought for years about why that is, and I've come up with two answers.


First, though both courses are housing developments, the tropical vegetation at Casa de Campo does a lot better job of hiding the development areas than the desert vegetation at Cabo del Sol (or anywhere in Arizona).  There is just more variety of texture and color in the landscape, and denser vegetation to screen things when you want them screened.
Getting away from the specific courses but color? I am a bit surprised to see you use that as a rationale. I am forever battling those who want to introduce colors to the desertscape at CDS... while some color soes occur naturally too much is a disaster.

Second, what makes Teeth of the Dog stand out for me is exactly what most modern courses don't have -- golf features that were built at the human scale.  The bunkering and green contouring elements at Teeth of the Dog are very different from most of Mr. Dye's other works, because they were built by hand, by a bunch of Dominican laborers.  So you get little random knobs, or the waste bunker on the 10th hole that narrows down to about three feet wide at one point.  Those features give the course a certain style that is more like Myopia Hunt Club than anything built in the last 50 or 75 years.

Whereas, Cabo del Sol, like nearly all Nicklaus courses [and ALSO like many Pete Dye courses that I don't rate as highly among Pete's work], is built at the scale of a D-6.  In fact, the upper holes are all benched into the slope artificially at D-8 scale, like Whistling Straits or Pete Dye Golf Club, which divorces them from the natural contours of the ground, and makes them seem a bit sterile.  It was actually a friend from Asia who clued me into this; pretty much every course in Asia is that way.  It doesn't ruin the course for me, but it makes me much less fond of those upper holes of yours than you are, whether they are good strategic holes or not.
Fair enough but the only holes you could really claim are beched would be 2, 5(and that is getting pretty damn picky) and 14. The rest, while I would like to see a tiny bit more "natural drainage"  are not really "benched". Beyond that I think you would really like the changes made in the last few years

Sorry, most of that is OT, but your marketing department would probably prefer that it's on a thread about Pete Dye courses, anyway.
Having you state you have it in your personal top 100? Marketing department could not dislike that, JWL may have some comments on the specofoc critiques but overall your evaluation is fair though I think a fresh look might be in order. I do appreciate your comments and the "Dye guy" comment was not a shot at all.

[Ross Harmon]

Of Pete's "greats", I've played Crooked Stick, Casa de Campo and Blackwolf Run. All truly world class. I've also walked Whistling Straits several times and would say that's his best. Visually amazing, an engineering marvel and just flat out great start to finish. It's interesting to compare / contrast those 4 though as they are all generally regarded as among Pete's best from each decade - the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

Go figure my next up is French Lick - representing the 2000s.

[jeffwarne]

Given the era it was built, the budget he was given, the plain vanillaness of the site (except of course 13,14) and the fact it was 575 lot housing development, I'd have to say Long Cove.

Note:haven't played Casa de Campo or The Golf Club

[Bart Bradley]

Given the era it was built, the budget he was given, the plain vanillaness of the site (except of course 13,14) and the fact it was 575 lot housing development, I'd have to say Long Cove.

Note:haven't played Casa de Campo or The Golf Club

Jeff:

Just how good do you think Long Cove really is...are you saying it was his greatest achievement or his greatest course?  Is Long Cove US Top 50 good in your opinion?

Bart

[Steve Lang]

  another popularity contest..

.. of ones I've played, definitely Oak Tree (must have played it at least 10 times before it got tweeked)  one can't ask for much more..

.. in TX that is near death.. Waterwood National (on Lake Livingston across the lake from Whispering Pines), done over by Bill Coore and hosted 1981 PGA Tour Qualifying School Finals..

.. in the "what the heck" offering a couple of rounds at his signature course at Mission Hills was a very enjoyable semi-tough day..

[Ronald Montesano]

"another popularity contest.."

Let's hope not. My aspiration is actual substantiation of merit. I like how you put it, Steve, in the "What the heck" category. I would call Wintonbury Hills my "What the heck" nominee.

I think the problem at this juncture is, how much of the recent work is actually Pete? Brad Klein, et al, might be able to help us out.

So far, we've seen support for the pete-eponymous course in West Virginia, the golf-eponymous place in Ohio, and a few other randy locales. Keep 'em coming, mighty mites!

[Steve Lang]

  Ron,

said that popularity thing as a thought, just waiting for a pat mucci rational variant moment on how can anyone who hasn't played them all have a valid opinion on PD's greatest?

When Oak Tree was built I believe it had the highest slope rating of any course in USA.. and even caused SEVE severe consternation!

[Greg Gilson]

Have not played many of the candidates mentioned here. Of the ones i've played (I'm amazed to find it's 15 when i add them up!) I rank the Top 5 TOTD, Straits, Kiawah Ocean, TPC Sawgrass, HTGL...all for slightly different, often personal, reasons. Can't wait to get to The GC, in particular, to see if it can knock HTGL out!

[Jim_Coleman]

   Well, I'm a little prejudiced, as I'm in the midst of playing my 40 or so rounds per year at the Teeth, but it's my favorite of all courses other than PV.  Of course you start with 7 ocean holes.  But it's not just that they happen to be "on the ocean.". They are all great holes.  Three par 3's of different length and only two in the same direction.  Unbelievable green settings taking incredible advantage of nature's offering.  And 4 great par 4's, again with amazing natural green complexes.  And the inland holes are better than Pebble's, IMHO.  Maybe 9 and11 are less than strong par fives, but all the others are terrific.  And 13 completes what Tom Doak called the best set of par threes in the world.  What's more, Peer "modernized" the course a few years ago without compromising it's greatness or architectural integrity.  You know what, I think I'll play it again tomorrow.  Pretty lucky, huh?

[jeffwarne]

Given the era it was built, the budget he was given, the plain vanillaness of the site (except of course 13,14) and the fact it was 575 lot housing development, I'd have to say Long Cove.

Note:haven't played Casa de Campo or The Golf Club

Jeff:

Just how good do you think Long Cove really is...are you saying it was his greatest achievement or his greatest course?  Is Long Cove US Top 50 good in your opinion?

Bart

Bart,
I'm not sure
Long Cove is my favorite Pete Dye course of the ones I've played.
Greatest? I'm probably not qualified to comment.
I've played Harbour Town, Ocean Course, PGA West, TPC, and quite a few others, and I prefer Long Cove over all of them, by a lot. in fact I prefer Dye's Colleton River course to the first four mentioned also.
Long Cove was once ranked 19th in the country, but many great courses have been built since then, as well as a distinct change in tastes by raters.

As stated I haven't played a couple Pete Dye greats mentioned here though.
I'm probably biased though

[Dan Herrmann]

I really like PDGC.

Bulle Rock is pretty interesting because it has some really fine holes (#2) , and some world-class clunkers (#15 comes to mind).  For my money, Doak's Beechtree (right down the road) was better, but that's now a moot argument.

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