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Don_Mahaffey

Natural golf courses
« on: February 08, 2013, 02:54:12 PM »
In Pat Mucci’s “controversy” thread, he seems to infer that we like a certain hole, look, or course because we have a bias toward a certain architect. I think that is what he is trying to say, but I’m not sure and he can certainly set me straight. I only know what I like. I like golf courses that look natural, or sit within a natural looking setting. There is always debate about what is natural, native, or manufactured…etc…but it is the setting or more precisely, the feeling I get when I play a golf course within a natural setting. I like rough edges, uneven ground, scruffiness, blurred lines and edges. But ask me why I like it, and I struggle to give any sort of meaningful answer.

In an earlier thread “hit or miss,” Chris Anderson’s Long Tail theory was brought up. It is an interesting read, and tied in with Anderson’s Long Tail theory, is the theory of abundance. Anderson believes that economics is changing from a scarcity of goods to an abundance of goods and products. One of those products in abundance is information, and education, on the internet. Did you know that there are hundreds of undergraduate and graduate level courses on the internet that you can attend for free? You don’t get the interpersonal relationship with the instructors or other students, but the course and content is there. I’m currently watching a course offered by UC Berkley on the history of ecological and energy economics. In one of the lectures the instructor spent quite a bit of time on John Stuart Mill, 1806-1873, an English Philosopher who developed many economic theories. Tying into Anderson’s theory of abundance, Mill believed that development would have a natural end. Mill thought we would reach a “Steady State” where we have enough “stuff” and at that point we would begin to put more value on nature and natural settings. I think Mill might have been overly optimistic about this belief, but I do wonder as the world becomes more developed and refined if we don’t have cravings for natural settings.

We know people enjoy manicured turf and perfect golfing conditions. But as we get better at providing those conditions, and they become more common place, more developed, is that clean manicured look what really touches us? There has always been this belief that the modern natural look of golf architecture is a throw back. The architects talk about studying old classics and using them for inspiration. But is that why the look is popular? Because it is traditional look, because it looks great in all the old photos? Or, in our modern times, do we crave the natural outdoors? Do we just like golf more when presented in a natural looking setting? We talk about the sports on the rise among young adults, and many of the outdoor sports get mentioned. Is golf losing young adults to mountain biking, skiing, hiking, and other outdoor activities? I don’t know the answer to that, but I feel like the answer is yes. And I feel like the future of golf should be courses even more integrated into nature. Course design inspired by nature and maintained more naturally.
.  
As we move forward, I wonder if our more natural looking, feeling, and playing courses will really be inspired by the past, or more instep with the wants and needs of a more refined populace.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 03:39:55 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2013, 03:36:02 PM »
My one issue with the theory of abundance is it makes the assumption that production or availability of product will always meet demand. I think the Black Swan event for golf is not financial its access to water.  Golf in Ontario has seen its access to water reduced 10% three times in 15 years. We have lots more water than most regions, but there’s still pressure and that pressure grows.

Ronald Wright’s Massey Lecture called A Short History of Progress talks about how each great civilization was founded around productive farmland. As cities and civilizations expanded, they built over the most productive areas and expand outwards. This required them to depend on less productive areas and the ability to deliver the goods to meet demand. Each major civilization, until recent times, has failed as production failed to meet demand through unforeseen events such as drought. The outlying areas stopped sending production since there was no longer an excess.

I think an extensive drought is the Black Swan Event for North American Golf.

We depend on cheap easy access to fresh water for our communities, agriculture and golf. Some communities depend on “other regions” for their water (ie. Phoenix, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, you get the picture of where I’m going with this). Most cities depend don’t have the resources they require at hand. That historically never ends well.

If we lose 10% of the available water where is the cut once we go into survival mode? It’s not people, but they will be asked to conserve. It’s not argriculture. It’s the non-essential places like golf that will left to cope particularly since we have a stigma attached as consumptive.
And none of this talks about oil, resources, or any of the other energy or resource intensive products that are required to meet our current level of conditioning. There appears to be an abundance of all we need, but since everything in modern society has become on demand, are we fooling ourselves.  
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 03:40:07 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jeb Bearer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2013, 03:53:52 PM »
Ian,
I see what you're saying about water, and you are obviously way more knowledgeable about this stuff than me, but isn't the flip-side of that coin that the over-manicured over-watered parkland courses find ways to survive without as much water, resulting in firmer conditions and lower maintenance budgets? Or am I way off here?

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2013, 04:11:35 PM »
You guys are right on.  Even with the Ogallalla Aquifer, the demands of "civilization" have begun to limit access to that which lies directly below in absolute abundance.  Could well be the future is in more 'rustic" (credit: Jaeger Kovich) courses and less the wall- to-wall manicured parkland courses.  The Scots were probably right all along and the path to the future could well be in the past.  

Mahaffey convinced Tom (or vice versa) to use less than half the heads on our new course when compared to the old course.  The look will be different but I'd bet the turf will be much better for it.  Even where water isn't short, being mindful and "green" is the right thing to do.  It also reduced costs which makes viability easier.

Major drought last summer and looks to continue.  Lots of skinny cows round here.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2013, 04:12:37 PM »
Ian,
I hear you, but I think you are enforcing my opinion. A more natural setting means more natural, less man made inputs. Our younger generation is "green". I'm extrapolating here, but when Mill was developing his theory England was in an industrial boom. Cities were crowded, dirty and pollution was unchecked. Mill seems to say that as we developed our economies and the “steady state” emerged people would value nature more. He seemed to have an environmentalist bent. My view on naturalist courses is not only would they appear more natural, they would be maintained more natural as well, and I do not buy that means less playable, quite the opposite in fact. Just like any great course that has a consistent theme, I think natural would mean less water, chemicals, and waste. I believe that is a big plus for some of our younger generation and I just wonder if that might be the direction we are headed; not just because we have to, but because we want to.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2013, 06:36:24 PM »
Mahaffey convinced Tom (or vice versa) to use less than half the heads on our new course when compared to the old course.  The look will be different but I'd bet the turf will be much better for it.  Even where water isn't short, being mindful and "green" is the right thing to do.  It also reduced costs which makes viability easier.

Um, as I remember it, I introduced you to Don, because he and I agreed that the irrigation systems we were seeing on most other courses were way overdesigned.  Some of the turf at the edges will struggle, and maybe even die back in a droughty year, but I'd prefer that to another $200k of sprinklers and more water consumption.  The problem I've had with other irrigation consultants is that they would never allow that last sentence because it would damage THEIR reputation ... as if we are supposed to pay to keep it up for them.

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2013, 07:22:39 PM »
Don - The biophilia hypothesis may answer some of what you ask - yes, golf is a game of skill, strategy and self-discipline - so is curling - golf is better (never having curled). Wikipedia has a summary of the hypothesis.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2013, 07:51:55 PM »
Greg, thank you. I looked up the Wiki page and there is some very interesting info there as well as some links that appear to have some interesting reading as well. Maybe I'm not crazy.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2013, 08:06:29 PM »
Don - I don't get there very often, but have you noticed that it's only the very expensive restaurants that don't have some kind of music constantly playing/blaring in the background? It's as if you're paying not so much for the exquisite food but for the quiet, and for the chance to have a good conversation.

Peter 

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2013, 08:23:09 PM »
Ian is right on water...

one way to save water, is to be more precise... and had watering is the solution that some supers have found. Watering only the top of mounds or other dry spots.

they you'll have some supers who would say: hand watering is too expensive and our creww doesn't have time for that...

well they probably would if they stop mowing the grass weekly (or twice a week) between the back tees and the fairways or on other unused spots on the course.. than the course will not be mown wall to wall, have more texture and look more natural.

it's an all around process. along with the great lecture of A Short history of progress, I recommand the book Natural Capitalism. the chapter on design is a must read.. seeing design as a whole, not as specific issue like, watering, grassing etc.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2013, 09:24:44 AM »
Mahaffey convinced Tom (or vice versa) to use less than half the heads on our new course when compared to the old course.  The look will be different but I'd bet the turf will be much better for it.  Even where water isn't short, being mindful and "green" is the right thing to do.  It also reduced costs which makes viability easier.

Um, as I remember it, I introduced you to Don, because he and I agreed that the irrigation systems we were seeing on most other courses were way overdesigned.  Some of the turf at the edges will struggle, and maybe even die back in a droughty year, but I'd prefer that to another $200k of sprinklers and more water consumption.  The problem I've had with other irrigation consultants is that they would never allow that last sentence because it would damage THEIR reputation ... as if we are supposed to pay to keep it up for them.

Never knew who was the catalyst (imagine both you and Don) but no doubt you made the intro, my friend.  Really happy that we took the path we did and the end result (both the course and concept) will be something relatively unique in modern golf.  A perfect fit for the Nebraska Sandhills! 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2013, 09:43:17 AM »
What is the best maintained course per dollar of irrigation for it's given climate?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2013, 01:07:18 PM »
What is the best maintained course per dollar of irrigation for it's given climate?

Any course without irrigation will beat any course with on this one Jud ;)


Don_Mahaffey

Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2013, 01:15:41 PM »
What is the best maintained course per dollar of irrigation for it's given climate?

I'd be interested in hearing from others on this question.
 
I think what we did at Dismal comes out OK on the cost/benefit scale. No irrigation pond, pumping directly from the ground means only moving the water once, no loss due to percolation or evaporation, fewer components in the ground, architect designing a flexible edge instead of hard edge, and client buying in to that. I think it all adds up to a very practical approach.

I don't know all the details, but I liked what I saw at Streamsong as well. Looked like less in the ground then normal, especially in a southern climate. 

Pinehurst #2 would seem to be in the conversation

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses New
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2013, 01:30:38 PM »
I think a lot of people consider the attributes you speak of to be natural and that is a problem in my mind. Nature is incredible in that there is no sameness or uniformity...nature is naturally random. In some instances, completely opposite to the uneven, scruffy look you prefer. In fact, I can think of many landscapes off the top of my head which have clean lines and are pristine around the edges. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 09:45:13 PM by Frank M »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2013, 02:01:13 PM »
What is the best maintained course per dollar of irrigation for it's given climate?

Any course without irrigation will beat any course with on this one Jud ;)



I'm not sure about this Jon.  There's a certain minimal playability involved.  There's a course near me that has minimal irrigation.  It's nice in that it usually plays pretty firm as you'd expect, except there are shots around the green where there isn't enough good turf to execute the shot that's called for. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2013, 02:05:12 PM »
Don states:
Quote
We know people enjoy manicured turf and perfect golfing conditions. But as we get better at providing those conditions, and they become more common place, more developed, is that clean manicured look what really touches us? There has always been this belief that the modern natural look of golf architecture is a throw back. The architects talk about studying old classics and using them for inspiration. But is that why the look is popular? Because it is traditional look, because it looks great in all the old photos? Or, in our modern times, do we crave the natural outdoors? Do we just like golf more when presented in a natural looking setting? We talk about the sports on the rise among young adults, and many of the outdoor sports get mentioned. Is golf losing young adults to mountain biking, skiing, hiking, and other outdoor activities? I don’t know the answer to that, but I feel like the answer is yes. And I feel like the future of golf should be courses even more integrated into nature. Course design inspired by nature and maintained more naturally.

And, Greg Murphy points us to 'biophilia hypothesis' :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophilia_hypothesis

I think the phenomenon of a process of 'getting back to nature' (within the golfer context) is a process or journey by degree and incriment.  

First, when I think of this concept, I always remember back to a passage in John Strawn's book, "Driving The Green" where he ponders the yearning to the fields of play that he posits that golf represents, as an ancient subconcious part of our human evolved psyche.  Somewhere down in our genetic soup, is a trait and affinity for the fields of abundance that produced the resources of food and water, and survival of we as a species.  The learned skills of the hunt, targetting, travel across the Savannah grasslands was the alluring path and use of skills that was our superior intelligence to master and flourish.  Now that we are not primitive, we still have a yearning in us to employ these deep down skills and seek out what our learned aesthetic emotion for landscapes calls to us, that now look like fields of golf.  (all - a feeble paraphrasing of what Strawn wrote, of course)

Well, I think that there is an entry level of those sorts of triggers when a modern 'urban' dweller discovers golf.  That new afficianado of the game goes to some 'field of play' most likely one of the unnatural begining courses near the urban home  (as we more refined golfers understand naturalism in golf design) and begins to well up those subconcious yearnings and affinity for the 'fields' and targetting game skill sets.  And, that experience satisfies the inner need for a while.... until they discover even more natural and alluring settings for playing the game.  Sometimes they get off on the wrong track and pursue that wrong track of 'ideal golf course design and presentation' as the lovely garden of landscape delights, and begin to think of golf in an Augusta Syndrome mentality.  They may stay on that path for many years.

But.... how many of us who are fanatics on this site, have seen the process in our golf friends- or experienced it ourselves, when that real 'biophiliac' response sets in??  That is the time, when the enthusiastic golfer has reached a saturation point of 'unnaturally manicured' fields of play (that they 'thought' represented an ideal commune with the outdoors, nature, and game skill set) but suddenly they discover the 'natural' they were embracing was an illusion, and there exists designs and construction methods, along with presentations of the more actually natural fields that harken our subconcious back to the real savannahs of our ancient beings?

I've seen it in many of us urban dwellers, who never saw anything like, 'the sand hills'.  On their first rides up to SHGC, they have an enlightment, an introduction to the grassland prairies, and then see a whole different kind of golf course setting, that they hadn't previously contemplated, because they were so hung up on usual urban presentations of greenism and manicured idealic maintenance practices.  

However, there are the many golfers who got to start their experiences on the real links in the first place.  They are not as subject to this 'awakening' and discovery of natural fields of play.  They are the lucky portion of the golfing world that sort of knew it all the time because that is where they began.  But, the urban golfers, who reinforce unnatural idealic marketed notions for years, but finally get a chance to go to the real links, or sand hills, Oregon coast, Cabot links, perhaps even the more manufactured illusion of Streamsong... but where more naturalistic presentations harken that subconcious affinity to naturalism; that is when and where they 'get it'.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2013, 02:26:37 PM »
It is an interesting topic you raise Don, and one that certainly resonates with me personally.

I certainly have a yearning to get away from the hustle and bustle of a busy life, away from constant communication and of iphones, ipads and twitter, and all the other things that we now 'have'  ::) - and I find this best in a place without traffic, with no idustrial noise, and bombardment of what seems the modern life - for me this is easiest achieved in nature or natural place, and my favourite one of those is a golf course, these "settings" can be pretty special. Near where I live we have a number of good options for this, top of the list would be Barnbougle, and it certainly fits toward the end of the scale you refer, and compare this with most of the great sandbelt clubs here, where most agree the quality of the golf is world class - but man, the vehicle traffic can really detract from the experience and the setting.

So, I would say that I agree that the future does lie more in the direction of the types of setting, and maintenance practice you speak of, but I am sure it will be a very long time before the majority - who love wall to wall green - will come around to what is perhaps this ideal. :(
@theflatsticker

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2013, 05:28:49 PM »
There is a lot of information to absorb on this thread. Thanks to everyone who has weighed in.

I know that no golf course will ever be completely natural. The nature of the game is going to require man's touch.
But I do wonder about these theories of man's need to connect with nature. I don't see us giving up our creature comforts and retuning to caves or hollowed out tree trunks, but I do expect us to require more natural settings when it comes to our leisure and recreation time.

It gets old to hear all the things that golf HAS to do to survive...less expensive, less time to play...but I think the trend toward more natural golf settings is here to stay. I think we see it in our parks, in some of our other urban landscapes, and I don't know why we don't expect it to be the case with golf. You can argue that if someone takes an abandoned land fill or mine and does their best to restore it to a natural looking setting, that it's not natural. Of course its not, but we can learn from natural systems can't we? We can try and restore some natural type settings using flora native to the area and design/construction techniques that mimic natural systems. We can use maintenance techniques more in tune with nature and less reliant on synthetic inputs.   

I don't think it will be easy and I think we have a lot to learn in this area, but I wonder if it isn't where we need to go. We say it often, but where is the next generation, and the one after that, of golfers going to come from? What are we going to do to make golf attractive to future generations?


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2013, 07:52:34 PM »
I know that no golf course will ever be completely natural. The nature of the game is going to require man's touch.

Don:

Actually, some of the most beautiful pieces of land I've ever seen for potential golf courses were land under grazing -- The National in Australia, Cape Kidnappers, and Castlegregory in Ireland were three great examples.  And in both the first two cases, the completed golf course was less exciting to look at, because removing the animals required men to take over more of the maintenance, and the great undulating surface of the land was lost amidst golf hole corridors.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2013, 08:07:55 PM »
Don,I think you're right about the growing desire for natural settings, but my fear -- as my obscure earlier post suggested -- is that somehow the simplest, most natural settings will became (like expensive restaurants and their 'quiet) something we'll be paying dearly for.

Peter 

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2013, 10:32:55 PM »
I know that no golf course will ever be completely natural. The nature of the game is going to require man's touch.

Don:

Actually, some of the most beautiful pieces of land I've ever seen for potential golf courses were land under grazing -- The National in Australia, Cape Kidnappers, and Castlegregory in Ireland were three great examples.  And in both the first two cases, the completed golf course was less exciting to look at, because removing the animals required men to take over more of the maintenance, and the great undulating surface of the land was lost amidst golf hole corridors.
So the trick would be to find a way to combine grazing and golf so the golf holes blended in instead of standing out? That sounds possible as long as the turf isn't over maintained?

Don,I think you're right about the growing desire for natural settings, but my fear -- as my obscure earlier post suggested -- is that somehow the simplest, most natural settings will became (like expensive restaurants and their 'quiet) something we'll be paying dearly for.

Peter  

Pay more for less. Funny how that works, but peace does have its price I guess.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 10:34:31 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2013, 10:48:56 PM »
I know that no golf course will ever be completely natural. The nature of the game is going to require man's touch.

Don:

Actually, some of the most beautiful pieces of land I've ever seen for potential golf courses were land under grazing -- The National in Australia, Cape Kidnappers, and Castlegregory in Ireland were three great examples.  And in both the first two cases, the completed golf course was less exciting to look at, because removing the animals required men to take over more of the maintenance, and the great undulating surface of the land was lost amidst golf hole corridors.
So the trick would be to find a way to combine grazing and golf so the golf holes blended in instead of standing out? That sounds possible as long as the turf isn't over maintained?

The trick would be to find a way to charge sustainable green fees for a new golf course even though the golfers might step in poop.  :)  I have yet to see anyone pull that off outside the U.K. and Ireland.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2013, 10:56:41 PM »
check this site:
http://dunwoody.patch.com/articles/dunwoody-native-brings-sheep-lawn-care-business-to-n-druid-hills

we are going to put them on a course in March and see how it goes....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Natural golf courses
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2013, 11:04:33 PM »
check this site:
http://dunwoody.patch.com/articles/dunwoody-native-brings-sheep-lawn-care-business-to-n-druid-hills

we are going to put them on a course in March and see how it goes....

That is the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.
I love the look of the courses I've seen maintained this way, everything one height, finding your ball a breeze-a cool look also.
Mulranny, Gweedore come to mind
Curious to see how that goes in the south.
ready to get a couple for my native area behind my house
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 11:18:45 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey