[Steve Lang]

Patrick, Yes  I was just there. It's immaterial to me whether those dunes were manufactured. For all intent and purposes they were natural to the site the architects were given.

It's a reoccurring motif throughout the complex and therefore much more accepting to even the snootier purist.

Switching gears.....  

I'm not a fan of the name of the course. IMO, Mosaic, would've been much better as it not only describes what each architectural team did, it flows off the tounge better.

Hey Adam.. Happy 2013..  Did you know that Mosaic (fertilizer company) mining/manufacturing operations in central florida have some big gypsum piles that probably look and can play like mountains!

[Greg Tallman]

1. The course DOES NOT blend with the NATURAL surrounds
2. The Jones and Fazios of the world are blasted for creating such courses
3. No matter how good SS is, and all indications it is very good, it is not in harmony with the general area
4. Why give it a break because the work was done by miners versus trained golf course builders?

[Alex Miller]

I'm stating that the mounds as pictured, would be received differently, had Rees designed, left or constructed them

OK.  Tom didn't design or construct the mounds, so can we stop comparing them to mounds that were designed or constructed by a GCA in the process of designing a golf course?  If Rees had left them, what would he be criticized for...leaving them?  Now if you're asking if the course would have as much buzz as it does now if Rees had designed it, I grant you that it probably wouldn't.  When I play one of his courses that I really like, that is designed with the average golfer in mind instead of just low handicaps and tour players, that is as fun as it is penal, then maybe I'll get a semi-chub to travel to nowhere Florida to play one of his courses.  Would it have been ranked lower if Rees had designed it?  Well the course isn't ranked yet and initial indications are that it may be in the top 100 of some lists but perhaps in the lower half, so who knows?  If you're intimating that there's a large contingent of Doak and C&C butt-boys here, well stop the presses (FYI- Lincoln was shot).  When I play one of their courses that I really don't like, that isn't designed with the average golfer in mind and which is more penal than fun, perhaps I'll get off the bandwagon.  Otherwise this is the biggest waste of 7 pages in recent memory.  Can we at least veer off into a political discussion or an anal retentive analysis of the soils at Streamsong going back to the Paleolithic Age?  

+1

[jeffwarne]

I think that if a Signature architect had designed SS, and the other 17 holes were the same as they are, that they'd get more than a pass, they might actually get some domestic work again.

But if they didn't get many people to make the trek, that would be because of all the Shite they'd produced prior, and to me that would be perfectly fair-and the owner's fault for failing to consider the effect of hiring an architect that had drawing power.

God knows that for years the current GCA faves had their share of watching signature firms getting prime sites and projects because of their names and daddy's names
It cuts both ways.

Jeff, so you're stating that Mike Keiser made a huge mistake in hiring David Kidd ?  ?  ?

It seems really silly to me to be discussing one hole, in a spectacular ,unique land form, and wondering why if we would criticize another architect if he did that. It's irrelevant.

Ahhh, but, we're not discussing one hole.  We're not discussing that par 3.  The discussion is centered on the artificial mounding and is relevant despite your attempt to dismiss it.

i would argue that there are dunes and moundtains all over that part fo Florida.

Which part of Florida specifically ?
How do you account for the miles of views uninterupted by any landform.

I saw plenty when I was driving to Streamsong.

How many miles from Streamsong ?


Does it matter if they're 40,000, 100, or 20 years old?

Yes, it matters when they're man made.

They're there, and the architects chose to incorporate some of them into their design.


So, the entire site was left untouched by machinery ?
Or, was it altered ?
And, if it was altered, that means that the architect decided what stayed as found and what was altered, right ?

Some are not as they are too severe.

"Too Severe"  That's part of the point.

When are mounds "Too Severe" ?

Mounds often serve as acoustical and visual buffers.

Why are they OK when one architect employs them and not OK when another architect employs them.

Tom Doak raved about Shadow Creek when it opened.
Is there another course with more mounding ?

Yes Patrick,
I am saying that if when they built Bandon, IF PEOPLE HAD NOT COME, that Keiser would have made a mistake by hiring an architect without drawing power of his own.
But they did come because of the product, the developer, and the site. Nonetheless, he took a risk, which turned out well for him. If it ghadn't he might've been kicking himself for not hiring a well known or different architect.

 Can you name one course where a Signature architect was criticized on this site for leaving intact a mound that was previously there when he first saw the site?

It's all moot anyway because when you go the site, and witness the SIZE of the "mound", you'll know no one in their right mind would've considered moving it, although some may have avoided it.

and to answer your question, mounds are OK when I like them (5 at Long Cove, 16 at Southampton, many holes at Westhampton, Kennebunkport)
and stupid when I dont

and there is often a double standard on this site, just not in this case

[Patrick_Mucci]

quote author=Jud Tigerman link=topic=54785.msg1267313#msg1267313 date=1360444941]

I'm stating that the mounds as pictured, would be received differently, had Rees designed, left or constructed them

OK.  Tom didn't design or construct the mounds, so can we stop comparing them to mounds that were designed or constructed by a GCA in the process of designing a golf course? 

Nobody compared them to constructed mounds, as to their design, of course they were incorporated into the design.
 

If Rees had left them, what would he be criticized for...leaving them?

Absolutely, and more

Now if you're asking if the course would have as much buzz as it does now if Rees had designed it,

That's NOT what I'm asking, so that line of discussion can be discarded.

I grant you that it probably wouldn't.  When I play one of his courses that I really like, that is designed with the average golfer in mind instead of just low handicaps and tour players, that is as fun as it is penal, then maybe I'll get a semi-chub to travel to nowhere Florida to play one of his courses. 

What courses of his have you played ?

Would it have been ranked lower if Rees had designed it?  Well the course isn't ranked yet and initial indications are that it may be in the top 100 of some lists but perhaps in the lower half, so who knows?

That's not the issue, but, you could start a thread with that premise.

If you're intimating that there's a large contingent of Doak and C&C butt-boys here, well stop the presses (FYI- Lincoln was shot).

I'm not "intimating" that, like in Geometry, that's a given.

When I play one of their courses that I really don't like, that isn't designed with the average golfer in mind and which is more penal than fun, perhaps I'll get off the bandwagon. 

What's your opinion of Bandon Trails and Easthampton ?

Otherwise this is the biggest waste of 7 pages in recent memory.

That's your opinion, obviously many others don't share it as demonstrated by their participation. 

Can we at least veer off into a political discussion or an anal retentive analysis of the soils at Streamsong going back to the Paleolithic Age? 

I noticed, in a quick review of the last 450 threads or nine pages, that you hadn't started a single thread, so I find it comical or pathetic that you'd suggest that we "veer off".   But, I did find a thread you created on page 10, an off topic thread, labeled "OT- For the guy who got shafted by Santa"
And in that thread you didn't enter one word, you merely posted a link, so please, for someone who contributes so little in the way of interesting threads, you're the last person that needs to tell us to "veer off"

Feel free to start any thread which you think others will find interesting, a thread that isn't limited to a quote or link, a thread that will get more than  6 replies.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes Patrick,
I am saying that if when they built Bandon, IF PEOPLE HAD NOT COME, that Keiser would have made a mistake by hiring an architect without drawing power of his own.

So, if instead of David Kidd, he had selected Jack Nicklaus, who has drawing power of his own, he might have been better off ?

But they did come because of the product, the developer, and the site.

I'd go with the product.
Most visitors don't have a clue as to the details on Mike Keiser and they certainly didn't come because of the site which is about as remote as you can get.  It's the product.

Have you played Sandpiper and Sandpines ?

Nonetheless, he took a risk, which turned out well for him. If it ghadn't he might've been kicking himself for not hiring a well known or different architect.

Well known ?  Like Nicklaus ?  Like Pascucci initially hiring Nicklaus at Sebonack ?

Can you name one course where a Signature architect was criticized on this site for leaving intact a mound that was previously there when he first saw the site?

I don't know that most on this site would be able to tell the difference and they certainly wouldn't know if the architect removed the mound.

It's all moot anyway because when you go the site, and witness the SIZE of the "mound", you'll know no one in their right mind would've considered moving it, although some may have avoided it.

Moving it is the wrong term.
You don't move it, you soften or level it, like Merion has done with some of their greens.

and to answer your question, mounds are OK when I like them (5 at Long Cove, 16 at Southampton, many holes at Westhampton, Kennebunkport)
and stupid when I dont

The mound at # 16 at Southampton serves as a safety feature if you're talking about the "punchbowl mounds.
The fronting mound would be villified if Rees had done it.
As to Westhampton, ditto, Rees would have been villified for introducing them.

and there is often a double standard on this site, just not in this case

That's where we disagree  

I told you that it would be a controversial thread 

[Chris Shaida]

There seems to be some persistent insistence -- and not just from the OP -- that the 'site' of a golf course is that same thing as the 'state' in which the golf course happens to be.  I get that both words start with an 's' and end with a 'te' but that doesn't make then equal.

Is it really silly or moronic to accept that the 'site' of a golf course is what you see while playing that course?  And for those who have actually been there throughout the entire walk on both courses the golf course holes are tied into and flow out of the area that you can see around them.

[Paul_Turner]

The mounding reminds me of Painswick which I know Tom has played.  Old mining mounds and earthworks where golf was not originally a concern have unique character.

10th at Painswick (James Boon pic)


5th

[Sven Nilsen]

I'm just impressed that the guys who built those mounds (or ridges or moundtains) left behind a wonderful site for a golf hole.  If I were Rees, I'd track them down and get them on my crew.

Reminds me of MacKenzie's line about how to build interesting greens, find the village idiot and ask him to build something completely flat.

Sven

[Chris Shaida]

oh, and just for the record since the obvious (albeit somewhat secret) topic of this thread wasn't the course or even the hole but rather one feature of the hole -- the 'mounds' -- it might be worth pointing out that if the 'mounds' in question are 80-90 feet high that would make them as HIGH as the 'mountain' referred to in 'Mountain Lake' which is of course a course in the same state as Streamsong, although perhaps not on the same 'site'.  

which might suggest that we should just start all over again but this time discuss the 'mountain' feature of this hole on this site state...

[Jud_T]

What courses of his have you played ?

Pinehurst #7
Torrey Pines South
Cog Hill #4
Sea Island Plantation
Medinah #3
Rio Secco
Fiddler's Elbow

What's your opinion of Bandon Trails and Easthampton ?

I love Bandon Trails and haven't played East Hampton.

I noticed, in a quick review of the last 450 threads or nine pages, that you hadn't started a single thread, so I find it comical or pathetic that you'd suggest that we "veer off".   But, I did find a thread you created on page 10, an off topic thread, labeled "OT- For the guy who got shafted by Santa"
And in that thread you didn't enter one word, you merely posted a link, so please, for someone who contributes so little in the way of interesting threads, you're the last person that needs to tell us to "veer off"

Feel free to start any thread which you think others will find interesting, a thread that isn't limited to a quote or link, a thread that will get more than  6 replies.

uh, how about this one which has more than twice the views of your current bait/rantfest?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54385.0.html

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat,

I don't want to speak for Bill, but isn't that how the land was left after Mosaic's mining operation?


Not based on the pre/during construction photos I saw, but, they may not have been all encompassing.

How many cubic yards of dirt were moved ?

Pat:

I'm still confused by your response to Matt Sander from early in the thread.  From your words, it appears that you thought that the mounds had been created during the construction of the course.  Perhaps you misunderstood Matt's assertion, but the gist of the exchange copied above is pretty clear.

Sven

PS - Please refrain from using the following (or anything of their ilk) in your response:

"That's because you're a moron."

"It wouldn't be the first time you didn't understand something."

"Your reading comprehension needs improvement."

[Jordan Wall]

What would you be saying about this hole if Rees Jones had been the architect ?

Probably just that it looks a lot like a hole Tom Doak would design.

[Mike McGuire]

Paul Turner:

"The mounding reminds me of Painswick which I know Tom has played...."

Reminds me of? I thought it was the same place at first glance.  Good catch.

I have not read but a few of the responses on this thread, sorry no debate for me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What courses of his have you played ?

Pinehurst #7
Torrey Pines South
Cog Hill #4
Sea Island Plantation
Medinah #3
Rio Secco
Fiddler's Elbow

Jud, your answer tends to confirm my suspicions.
You have very little in the way of experience with original designs by Rees.
Namely, Pinehurst # 7 and Rio Secco which is in the desert near Las Vegas

Fiddler's Elbow was designed by Hal Purdy.
Medinah # 3 by Tom Bendelow with more surgery than Joan Rivers
Cog Hill # 4 by Dick Wilson with several revisions
Torrey Pines South by Billy Bell with many revisions
Sea Island Plantation by Travis with many revisions

What's your opinion of Bandon Trails and Easthampton ?

I love Bandon Trails and haven't played East Hampton.

I noticed, in a quick review of the last 450 threads or nine pages, that you hadn't started a single thread, so I find it comical or pathetic that you'd suggest that we "veer off".   But, I did find a thread you created on page 10, an off topic thread, labeled "OT- For the guy who got shafted by Santa"
And in that thread you didn't enter one word, you merely posted a link, so please, for someone who contributes so little in the way of interesting threads, you're the last person that needs to tell us to "veer off"

Feel free to start any thread which you think others will find interesting, a thread that isn't limited to a quote or link, a thread that will get more than  6 replies.

uh, how about this one which has more than twice the views of your current bait/rantfest?

It's in the "replies" Jud, not in the views.
I equate the thread you linked below on an intellectual par with the thread that asks for your favorite half way house.

So what do you have, two threads in the last 900 threads "

I can see why you'd want to veer off, as you tend to like Santa's gifts and what's your favorite menu item in the grille threads.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54385.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

How anyone can equate the look of the first photo with the look of photos #'s 2 & 3 is shocking, but, a reasonable question is, is the surrounding terrain in all three photos similar.
By surrounding, take it out 1,000 yards, 2,000 yards and 3,000 yards.

But, again, that's not the issue and I don't understand why only two people understand the issue, one of whom has built a fascinating golf course with a quarry and tall mounds.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I don't want to speak for Bill, but isn't that how the land was left after Mosaic's mining operation?


Not based on the pre/during construction photos I saw, but, they may not have been all encompassing.

How many cubic yards of dirt were moved ?

Pat:

I'm still confused by your response to Matt Sander from early in the thread.  
From your words, it appears that you thought that the mounds had been created during the construction of the course.  
Perhaps you misunderstood Matt's assertion, but the gist of the exchange copied above is pretty clear.

It is if you read it with any degree of reading comprehension.

Are you now telling us that the entire site looked like that ?
If so, that would mean that Tom, Ben & Bill would have had to move millions of yards of dirt to produce the Blue and Red.

Sven

PS - Please refrain from using the following (or anything of their ilk) in your response:

"That's because you're a moron."  I don't find the need to be redundant.

"It wouldn't be the first time you didn't understand something."Ditto

"Your reading comprehension needs improvement."Too late

[Will Lozier]

To answer the original question, I would say that Rees has learned a lot recently about how to make a course "appear" more natural.  I would be proud of his learning attitude...much like Nicklaus has become much better at the same skill since Sebanack as the aesthetics of his designs have become much better IMO.  Ultimately though, all architects are limited by what their clients want and minimalist architecture has gained favor only in the last 15-20 years (maybe less).  So, if I had stumbled upon that tee not knowing the architect (which some may not), I would think nothing more than "what a great looking golf hole!" and, after having played it (at least once), I'd think more about the strategy and it's positives and negatives.

Furthermore, if RJ had designed this golf course as is, I'd be just as quick to get down to play as I am now provided all 36 were ready to go - hoping to get there over my spring break.  Would I be more skeptical of the conditions meeting the demands of the design, yes.

[Jud_T]

Medinah # 3 by Tom Bendelow with more surgery than Joan Rivers
Cog Hill # 4 by Dick Wilson with several revisions
Torrey Pines South by Billy Bell with many revisions

Really?  Geez you learn something every day.  FYI- these are complete renovations by Rees, as per his own website.  Unless you were too busy popping Viagra in a Green Ink factory to notice, this has become Rees' bread and butter business of late.

I equate the thread you linked below on an intellectual par with the thread that asks for your favorite half way house.

Sorry but my non-Ivy League Undergraduate and Graduate education didn't adequately prepare me to offer up something with the intellectual heft of "What would you be saying about this hole if Rees Jones had been the architect ?"

So what do you have, two threads in the last 900 threads

Wrong yet again, but frankly I really have no nagging desire to compare manhood measurements, particularly with the elderly.

A round of golf says you don't have the balls to resist your overweening desire to get the last word in...

[Steve Okula]

Sean,

I will accept that the water might be called "eye candy" but how could you NOT build a green on this spot? I suppose you might even call the large dune behind and left of the green "eye candy." So what? It is an awesome setting for a green complex, right?

What has not been mentioned is the tremendous movement of the green.That is what stands out to me as being the key challenge of playing the hole well, plus the front left bunker. The rest of the landforms are just pleasant distractions.

Bill

I was being a bit sarcastic.  It seems all archies want to build bunkers next water these days.  Its a bad trend and very difficult to pull off aesthetically.  If water is there, use it well, not just for eye candy.

I can understand the bunker to the right which mitigates against indiscriminate shots kicking in from that direction and enhances hole locations on the side of the green.  The back left bunker is a bit odd looking, but I can see its value in creating fun hole locations on the left of the green. For overly cautious tee shots which now must come out of that bunker toward water with a fall-away front of the green looks to be solid design.  Still, for me there is a fundamental flaw with the forward bunker - it is unnecessary and eliminates the prime reason for the green site.  I expect it may be there to balance the "scene".  Which means the primary question could be sand or no sand?  If there is to be sand, aesthetically, to balance the scene three is best.   It may be reasonable to get away with one.  Strategically, the back bunker can go because chipping from the swale accomplishes virtually the same thing as the bunker - in fact for me, I would prefer to be in sand.  However, aesthetically, if there is to be one bunker, that is probably the best place for it, but I think the right side, strategically is the best place.  

No question the the best part of the hole is the green.  It looks very fine!

It would be interesting if someone could photo shop the other choices of

1. No bunkers

2. No bunker up front - which I think will look weird

3. Only back left bunker

4. Only right bunker

I ask this again and again, why do archies stick bunkers next to water?

Ciao

Just for fun:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Medinah # 3 by Tom Bendelow with more surgery than Joan Rivers
Cog Hill # 4 by Dick Wilson with several revisions
Torrey Pines South by Billy Bell with many revisions

Really?  Geez you learn something every day.  FYI- these are complete renovations by Rees, as per his own website.  Unless you were too busy popping Viagra in a Green Ink factory to notice, this has become Rees' bread and butter business of late.

That's your source ?  ?  ?
Why don't you take a closer look at the list.
What does it say about Baltusrol, Ridgewood, Hollywood and Montclair ?

Did you play those course pre and post renovation so that you could tell us the true extent of the work ?

I equate the thread you linked below on an intellectual par with the thread that asks for your favorite half way house.

Sorry but my non-Ivy League Undergraduate and Graduate education didn't adequately prepare me to offer up something with the intellectual heft of "What would you be saying about this hole if Rees Jones had been the architect ?"

That's obvious.
One thread amongst 900 about Santa Claus seems to be your threshold


So what do you have, two threads in the last 900 threads

Wrong yet again, but frankly I really have no nagging desire to compare manhood measurements, particularly with the elderly.

I'm not wrong, I went back and reviewed the last ten pages of threads and you had one dumb thread, 1 out of 900 threads, and it was about Santa Claus.
Heck I know middle school kids who could do better than that

A round of golf says you don't have the balls to resist your overweening desire to get the last word in...

My overriding desire is to set the record straight and refute inaccurate statements like your claim that Fiddlers Elbow was designed by Rees Jones.

Tell us again how you came to declare that Fiddlers Elbow is an original Rees Jones design

It's amazing how guys like you resort to deflection and diversion when it's revealed that your facts and/or your reasoning are wrong.

Like a spoiled kid you strike out at me because you got it wrong...... Or rather, because you were called on it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

I agree, it's a great looking hole as pictured.

It has an alien quality that transports your mind far, far away from Bowling Green, FL

In that regard it's like Bayonne, in that if I blindfolded you, located you on the site and aligned you such that your view was confined to what was directly in front of you, that you'd never guess, in 100 guesses, where you are.

There's something neat about an architect's ability to do that.

Perhaps it's the alien look of the mounds in concert with the bunkering and expansive green that make it so photogenic.

Archie Struthers cleverly used huge mounds when he crafted Twisted Dunes, but, had Rees designed TD, he'd have been vilified by the cognoscenti on this site.

[Jud_T]

Medinah # 3 by Tom Bendelow with more surgery than Joan Rivers
Cog Hill # 4 by Dick Wilson with several revisions
Torrey Pines South by Billy Bell with many revisions

Really?  Geez you learn something every day.  FYI- these are complete renovations by Rees, as per his own website.  Unless you were too busy popping Viagra in a Green Ink factory to notice, this has become Rees' bread and butter business of late.

That's your source ?  ?  ?
Why don't you take a closer look at the list.
What does it say about Baltusrol, Ridgewood, Hollywood and Montclair ?

Who cares?  When did this become about you?  Oh, I know, when it became convenient for you to deflect the silliness of your original contention by trotting out your extensive golfing resume for the umpteenth time...

Did you play those course pre and post renovation so that you could tell us the true extent of the work ?

In some cases yes, Cog Hill in particular, and the course is significantly worse for it in my opinion

I equate the thread you linked below on an intellectual par with the thread that asks for your favorite half way house.

I would say getting everyone's recommendations of interesting off-the-run courses to visit for Tom and the rest of us is dramatically more interesting than mentally masturbating about the inane what/if hypothesis of this post.

So what do you have, two threads in the last 900 threads

Wrong yet again, but frankly I really have no nagging desire to compare manhood measurements, particularly with the elderly.

I'm not wrong, I went back and reviewed the last ten pages of threads and you had one dumb thread, 1 out of 900 threads, and it was about Santa Claus.
Heck I know middle school kids who could do better than that

Technically it's 2 of the last 100, so you're only off by a factor of 18.  Guess you were away at a Junior golf exhibition with Ben Hogan, Bobby Jones and that carpenter you've got so many wonderful locker room anecdotes about, what's his name...oh yeah, Jesus Christ, when they went over simple addition and subtraction in school.

A round of golf says you don't have the balls to resist your overweening desire to get the last word in...

My overriding desire is to set the record straight and refute inaccurate statements like your claim that Fiddlers Elbow was designed by Rees Jones.

Tell us again how you came to declare that Fiddlers Elbow is an original Rees Jones design

It was renovated by Rees.  Where exactly did I claim it was an original design?  Oh yeah, NOWHERE

It's amazing how guys like you resort to deflection and diversion when it's revealed that your facts and/or your reasoning are wrong.

When you look up the pot calling the kettle black in the dictionary.....

Like a spoiled kid you strike out at me because you got it wrong...... Or rather, because you were called on it.

What exactly did I get wrong?  You claimed I said Fiddler's Elbow was an original Rees Jones design, not me.  You claimed I only had 1 thread of the last 19 pages, not me, You intimated that the mounds in questions were manufactured, not me.  Congrats, you've succeeded in sucking me back into your vortex.  Perhaps I need to rethink my defense of you on the bullying thread.  Now please proceed and pad your replies by never giving up the opportunity to get the last word in.  And while you're at it please list every Rees Jones original design you've ever played and a detailed analysis of every routing, green, Client, shaper, tournament, caddie, bag boy, locker room attendant, grass and sand varietal, local microclimate and irrigation head associated with each.  Or perhaps instead of all the numbingly repetitive obfuscation you'd kindly tell us which original Rees Jones courses you've played that you find superior to Ballyneal, Barnbougle Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, St. Andrews Beach, Lost Dunes, Old Mac, Pacific Dunes, Renaissance Club, Rock Creek, Streamsong Blue or Stone Eagle?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jud,

I asked you what Rees Jones courses you had played and you listed Fiddlers Elbow.

Not only is Fiddlers Elbow not a Rees Jones course, but you have no idea as to the extent of the work he performed at Fiddlers Elbow.

The next time you post, it would help your credibility if you were accurate with your citations and your facts.

In addition, I said you had NO threads in the last 9 pages, with 1 inane thread about Santa on page 10.
I even went further and refined it to 1 thread in the last 900 threads, highlighting your distinguished contributions when you suggested veering off this thread.

So, in addition to the dire need to get your racts right, you need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills as well.

[Jud_T]

Jud,

I asked you what Rees Jones courses you had played and you listed Fiddlers Elbow.

Not only is Fiddlers Elbow not a Rees Jones course, but you have no idea as to the extent of the work he performed at Fiddlers Elbow.

I agree, my bad, I was looking at a list of totally renovated courses and somehow got switched to the renovated courses page.  You have my permission to remove Fiddler's Elbow from the discussion.  

In addition, I said you had NO threads in the last 9 pages, with 1 inane thread about Santa on page 10.
I even went further and refined it to 1 thread in the last 900 threads, highlighting your distinguished contributions when you suggested veering off this thread.

Actually it's 3 in the last 500 for those who are anal about such things, but who's counting?  Oh yeah, you.

Instead of focusing on inane details perhaps given the thrust of your original post, you can tell us exactly which original Rees Jones designs you've played in you're vast travels which is a superior design to Ballyneal, Barnbougle Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, St. Andrews Beach, Lost Dunes, Old Mac, Pacific Dunes, Renaissance Club, Rock Creek, Streamsong Blue or Stone Eagle? If not, then perhaps the reason Tom gets the benefit of the doubt here relative to Rees Jones is simply BECAUSE HE'S A BETTER ARCHITECT, the evidence of which is in his work, and not merely a guy with a bunch of fawning fans.

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