[Brent Hutto]

Mike Keiser's vision is a great destination golf complex, no doubt about that.

Isn't the Pebble Beach Company's vision also a great destination golf complex? Admittedly the Pebble resort is located near huge population centers rather than in the middle of nowhere but vision-wise they seem to be chasing the same dream don't you think?

So to my mind it's perfectly fair to ask, in addiition to course comparisons, which is the better place for a person or small group to go spend a four-day weekend and play several rounds of golf.

I think a lot of people would choose Bandon without a second thought if the question were "Where on the west coast of USA would you most want to travel in a foursome of your buddies for six rounds of golf over four days?".

I also know that a lot of people would choose Pebble Beach instantly if asked "Where on the west coast of USA would you most want to travel on your own and play one round of golf?".

[Jason Thurman]

Well the cheapest room at Pebble is $715 which is generally required to get a tee time for $495.  All-in $1210 and no replay rate that I'm aware of.  Peak season rates at Bandon are $235 for resort guests and rooms start at $210 for a total of $445 or slightly more than a third of the price, not to mention The $120 replay rate or the discount winter rates for rooms and golf.  So maybe not cheap but certainly relatively attractive.

You don't need to stay at the lodge to play Pebble. I didn't.

There's no question that Bandon is cheaper, but that's sort of like saying that Bob Dylan is a better opera singer than Tom Waits. $445 a day for a room and golf is still damn expensive. No one is playing either course unless they're happy to blow a lot of money.

I'm also not sure what price has to do with which course is better. Pebble Beach is a GREAT golf course, and still much cheaper a membership at Pine Valley or Oakmont.

[Terry Lavin]

Pebble Beach and Bandon Dunes are similar mostly because they are both public destination resorts on the Pacific Ocean. Pebble is more iconic and much ritzier. Bandon is more spartan and bucolic. Pebble has frills; Bandon does not. Each resort has attitude. To me the Pebble employees come off as arrogant and entitled while the Bandon staff seems genuinely happy to see you.

The biggest difference is imparted by the presence of carts at Pebble and their absence at Bandon. Too many people who have no business playing Pebble do so because they can ride. They would never walk with a caddie. I played there as a single one day and was paired with two Japanese tourists and a guy from Dallas who had a cart, with his wife riding as a passenger.  He shot around 165, with his wife shouting instructions from the cart.  I started learning Japanese on the fifth hole and wanted some sake in the Lodge when it was over!

At Bandon, the emphasis on quick play starts with the fact that everybody walks. It also creates a more serene tableau, if you'll pardon my rhetorical flourish.  Not seeing fleets of carts dashing to and fro blocking views of the golf course or the ocean is sort of a good thing.  More than that, you'll find very few guys who can't really play the game chopping it up at Bandon.  It's too remote and too physically taxing for the everyday chop who would gleefuly show up at Pebble to drop 5 hundo and take 150 swings and 150 photographs.

Bottom line, to each his own. I've been to both resorts a lot and have had amazing experiences at each. Can't go wrong at either spot.

[Jason Thurman]

Too many people who have no business playing Pebble do so because they can ride.

What do you mean by "people who have no business playing Pebble?" Just curious.

I don't see them "chasing the same dream" as Brent does. I think they're wildly different resorts with wildly different business models and target demographics. Pebble Beach is a world-class luxury resort with, among other world-class amenities, two world-class golf courses. Bandon Dunes is a world-class golf resort with four world-class golf courses. Most of the clientele I've seen and met at Pebble are people who wouldn't find much appeal at Bandon. Plenty of people go to Pebble and never play golf, spending their time shopping and at the spa and on the beach instead. I'm guessing virtually every guest at Bandon is playing golf there.

[Mike Hendren]

Limiting the discussion to the golf course architecture:  No, in my opinion.  I can easily understand the flip side of the coin, assuming we're talking about Pacific Dunes.  The difference between the two likely reflects one's bias.  I must admit I'm a sucker for Pebble's small canted greens.  

Nonetheless, using the time honored but faulty match play format:

Pebble v. Pacific Dunes
1.   AS
2.   PD 1 up
3.   PD 2 up (thanks primarily to the new aiming bunkers on the outside of the dogleg at PB)
4.   PD 3 up
5.   PD 4 up
6.   PD 3 up
7.   PD 3 up (A nice push for Doak - the 7th at PD the best inland hole on either course and one of America's finest)
8.   PD 2 up
9.   PD 1 up (Tough call as PD's tee shot is one of the best in America)
10. AS
11. PD 1 up
12. AS (Marginal call by me - I happen to like the 12th but I understand the criticism of its green depth)
13. PD 1 up
14. AS
15. AS
16. AS
17. PB 1 up (a very unpopular choice but I think PB's 17th is one of the most original one shotters anywhere)
18. PB 2 up (closer than you might think as I'm not a huge fan of PB's 18th)

Comment: If I flip 12 and 17 it winds up all-square.

Pebbe vs. Bandon  Dunes
1.   AS
2.   PB 1 up
3.   PB 2 up
4.   PB 2 up
5.   PB 1 up
6.   PB 2 up
7.   PB 3 up
8.   PB 4 up
9.   PB 5 up
10. PB 6 up
11. PB 5 up
12. PB 4 up
13. PB 4 up
14. PB 5 up
15. PB 4 up
16. PB 3 up
17. PB 4 up
18. PB 5 up

Alternatively, using the ten rounds test, I'd favor Pebble 7-3 over Pacific Dunes and 10-0 over Bandon Dunes.  

As much as any course on the planet, Pebble offers some of the most thrilling shots in the game:  
The second at 6
The tee shot at 7
The second at 8
The second at 9
The second at 10
The third at 14
The tee shot at 17
The tee shot at 18

Bogey

[Josh Tarble]

My question for those who have played both:   What holes do you remember most vividly? 

I know that is a very flawed way of comparing, but if one was to play both courses only once.  You want a memory that will remain fresh in your mind.

[Alex Miller]

Bogey,

If you flip 12 and 17 PD wins 2up.

[Matthew Petersen]

Maybe neither resort is overpriced, considering what they offer. But they're both damn sure expensive.

The running farce around here that Bandon is a great value while Pebble is unreasonably expensive is cut from the same double-standard that Mucci's "controversial" claim is trying to address. 100% of the clientele at both resorts is one completely willing to blow lots of cash on golf. The only difference at Pebble is the preponderance of other things to blow lots of cash on.

I haven't been to Bandon Dunes (yet), but it needs to be awfully good to be better than Pebble. Not many courses on the planet are. Watching play today, it's hard to imagine another set of greens so small that still manage to produce so many short game options. For all the focus on the coastline, that's the real strength of the course as a design, and I found the inland greens made those holes worthy of sharing the course with the oceanfront ones (with the exception of 12, which might be the worst par 3 in this hemisphere).

I agree completely.

[Mike Hendren]

Thanks Alex.  (Hope you're well by the way)  If I go AS on those two holes the match ends all-square, correct?

Do you agree with my premise that these are the two more controversial wins I give Pebble?

Bogey

[Jason Thurman]

Josh, I haven't played both, but I also haven't played any course that I remember as well as Pebble Beach. It has a unique advantage in that it's on tv every year (not to mention being in the Tiger Woods video games). It's a weird course in that you remember it while you're playing it for the first time. You can plan what shots to hit on what hole as you board the plane to fly out there.

I imagine playing Augusta National would be similar, but I can't really think of another course that might have that same effect. There'd be elements of it at The Old Course, but it's on tv far less often and its holes don't shine through on television in the same way. It's a weird feeling when you have "local knowledge" during your first play of a course.

[Alex Miller]

Thanks Alex.  (Hope you're well by the way)  If I go AS on those two holes the match ends all-square, correct?

Do you agree with my premise that these are the two more controversial wins I give Pebble?

Bogey

Absolutely! I've walked Pebble and only played it in vidya games and played PD a few times. I'd give those holes to PD easily (personally). I really enjoy 12 at PD as well as 17 while those holes are my least favorite at PB.

Others I would flip would be 7 and 10, but those are much closer than my feelings on 12 and 17.

[Jud_T]

I haven't been to Bandon Dunes (yet), but it needs to be awfully good to be better than Pebble.

Let's talk when you have been.  Personally I'll go back to Bandon as often as is humanly possible while I may go back to Pebble once with my son.

[Garland Bayley]

I gotta tell you guys something.   Pebble and Bandon Dunes have nothing on Victoria Golf Club in British Columbia.  The difference is that Pebble and Bandon's waterfront holes are atop 100' cliffs.  At Victoria the waterfront holes are ON the water.  What an amazing difference. 

Hello Bill.  When we were at Marine Drive CC, did you pay attention to the water?  Wasn't it almost at the course's level?  Maybe its me, but I just don't pay too much attention to the height of the course in relation to the water.

Arguably, the fact that numerous holes at Pebble are slightly elevated - 7, 9, 10, 17 and 18 - is the sweet spot; not too low and not too high.  But there are too many other factors, for me, that matter more.

Michael,

Marine Drive CC is on a river, and there is a higher bank between the course and the river. Not much water viewing to be had there.

[Gary Slatter]

Both are market priced, I love all 18 holes at Pebble, I love the neighbourhood and really like the fact that I can ride the course.  I have walked it a few times many years ago, but now appreciate the fact that I can still play there and ride.

Have not played Bandon yet, my son and I had planned to but ended up on Vancouver Island instead, twice.  As good as Bandon is, I'll have to take others word for it while I save my walking rounds for the Old Course.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bogey:

The hole by hole match play, while interesting, fails because it does not match up similar holes.  To compare a par 3 against a par 4 or 5 is not really an equitable exercise.

There was an ill-fated thread a while back that attempted to walk through your analysis for PB and PD (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48499.0.html). 

On that thread I offered up a like-hole match play scenario, as follows (feel free to disagree where you deem fit):

PB holes are noted first.

Opening Par 4 -

1 v. 1 - PD by a mile, as an opener it really sets the table for what's to come

Par 3's -

5 v. 5 or 14 - PD with either hole
7 v. 11 - Draw, how could you pick (if someone wants to make the history argument, PB might squeak ahead)
12 v. 17 - PD - the movement on this green wins out
17 v. 10 - PB - who hasn't re-enacted the Watson chip their first round on PB - bonus if you can re-enact the Nicklaus tee-ball

Short Par 4's -

3 v. 9 (lower green) - PB by a nose
4 v. 16 - PD, the angles decide it here
8 v. 6 - the two iconic par 4's, has to be a Draw
11 or 15 v. 8 - PD wins against either

Long Par 4's -

9 v. 13 - Draw
10 v. 4 - Draw
13 v. 2 - PD
16 v. 7 - as good a test as the hole in Monterrey provides, 7 at PD is better

Par 5's -

2 v. 12 - PD (just a bit more going on)
6 v. 3 - Draw
14 v. 15 - PB

Closing Par 5 -

18 v. 18 - PB - I'd rather finish with a shot at birdie than the feeling I just got the piss beat out of me

Final tally - PD 8, PB 4, 5 holes halved

[Mike Hendren]

Sven, as I noted in post, the match play format is indeed faulty.  Arguably worthless.  But at one time it was a tradition on this site.

I do like to compare previous efforts to see how my opinions and tastes have evolved over time.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Sven Nilsen]

Bogey:

No excuse for my selective reading, I think I just jumped straight to the results.

Interesting to me that you had the 10 round choices the way you did.  I'd probably go with 6-4 PD over PB and 8-2 PB over BD.

Agree with your list of thrilling shots at Pebble, and I'd throw in the rest of 18.  Its a great hole from start to finish.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Emile,

Define "better" ?

Both are great golf courses.

In what context do you judge the responses ?

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