Should all tees have slopes?

[Jason Connor]

Reading this line in the Concession thread,

"Despite the golf course's 155 slope from the 7,500 yard back tees, I do not believe the course to be overly difficult, and certainly not unfair."

made me wonder the title of this thread.

Course rating affects everyone.  Slope rating is primarily aimed at the poorer golfer (e.g. the slope rating has no effect on the number of strokes a scratch golfer gets).

Should anyone who isn't a low-single digit handicapper be playing a 7,500 yard set of tees?  Probably not.

Therefore would it behove the USGA to deem some sets of tees "Scratch" or "5 or below" instead of even assigning them a slope?

And the simple fact is there are SO many ways to be a bogey golfer, that the variability of scores for bogey golfers on a 7500 yard / 155 slope course are enormous. One number doesn't fit all on that type of severe course.   Some video games these days you have to 'unlock' levels. Maybe the back tees should be the same.

[Garland Bayley]

I believe the premise of you post is wrong.

If the high handicapper can play the back tees as fast or faster than the scratch player, there is no reason why the high handicapper should not play the back tees. Therefore, the back tees need a slope rating.

[Mark Saltzman]

As a short-hitting 2, I actually find the slope info very useful.  Not that I would ever play a 7,500 yard set of tees, but if the 7,000 yard set had a slope of 150+, it would tell me I probably couldn't reach a bunch of the fairways over forced-carry hazards.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jason,

If one just looks at distance ratings alone, a golf course of 6850 yards will produce a yardage rating of 72 for the scratch player and a yardage rating of 93.5 for the bogey player. If par of this course is 72, the scratch player should match his hancdicap but the bogey player will score about 3.5 strokes higher than his handicap. The bogey player's distance, the one that produces a rating equal to his handicap on this same par 72 course, would be 6,350 yards. Additionally, the yardage that would give the bogey player the chance to par (shoot 72) on this same golf course is 3,500.

Maybe a sign on the first tee stating the above would encourage folks to play it forward.

http://www.popeofslope.com/courserating/whatsin.html
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why high handicappers should stay away from the back tees:  
 
http://www.popeofslope.com/downloads/therealdifference.pdf

[Garland Bayley]

Why high handicappers should stay away from the back tees:  
 
http://www.popeofslope.com/downloads/therealdifference.pdf

The article says nothing about why high handicappers should stay away from the back tees. What a waste of time. 

All the article says is that amateurs aren't as good a pros. DUH!

[Garland Bayley]

Jason,

If one just looks at distance ratings alone, a golf course of 6850 yards will produce a yardage rating of 72 for the scratch player and a yardage rating of 93.5 for the bogey player. If par of this course is 72, the scratch player should match his hancdicap but the bogey player will score about 3.5 strokes higher than his handicap. The bogey player's distance, the one that produces a rating equal to his handicap on this same par 72 course, would be 6,350 yards. Additionally, the yardage that would give the bogey player the chance to par (shoot 72) on this same golf course is 3,500.

Maybe a sign on the first tee stating the above would encourage folks to play it forward.
...

I got news for you Jim. High handicappers know they score high. So your statement above is pointless.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,

The real waste of time is spent by players who find themselves behind others who should know their limitations and play from a set of tees that are more in line with their abilities.  

If I must have a 'point' for posting the yardage rating it is to show that yardage is the greatest determiner of all ratings, and that if a player chooses his yardage wisely he'll have a much better chance to use his skills to better effect.

[noonan]

A local muni I frequent has 2 regulation courses.

Course 1 - 7200 blue tees, 6700 white tees
Course 2 - 6700 blue tees, 6200 white tees

We play both of them equally - course 1 is noted as being most peoples favorite course

We have walked across the driving range from 1 to 2 because of hacks on the blue tees of course 1

[Jeff Bertch]

I think one of the most repeated mistakes in golf is golfers playing from a tee far greater than their ability. I'm not sure why they want to play back there and make a bunch of bogies. You should pick a tee where you have a reasonable chance at reaching ALL the greens in regulation. That said, it is the golfers right to choose their own tee and if they are keeping pace, it is not really an issue. Slope is useful for handicaps from all tees.

BTW, play up at the Black!

[Garland Bayley]

A local muni I frequent has 2 regulation courses.

Course 1 - 7200 blue tees, 6700 white tees
Course 2 - 6700 blue tees, 6200 white tees

We play both of them equally - course 1 is noted as being most peoples favorite course

We have walked across the driving range from 1 to 2 because of hacks on the blue tees of course 1

Methinks you confuse hacks with slow players. Some of us hacks get real tired of waiting on the grinding scratch.

[Garland Bayley]

... You should pick a tee where you have a reasonable chance at reaching ALL the greens in regulation.

So most women should just stay off of most courses?!?!?

That said, it is the golfers right to choose their own tee and if they are keeping pace, it is not really an issue. Slope is useful for handicaps from all tees.

Agreed!


BTW, play up at the Black!


Agreed. If there are carries the hack can't hack, then he should play forward instead of searching for balls that haven't made the playing surface.

[Mike McGuire]

Yes - preferably away from the cart path.

[Kevin_D]

High handicap does not equal short hitter.  I'm a 17 (sadly) but hit it as long/longer than all but a few near scratch golfers at my club.

[Jason Connor]

High handicap does not equal short hitter.  I'm a 17 (sadly) but hit it as long/longer than all but a few near scratch golfers at my club.

But do you really out drive those scratch guys when you're hitting 3 off the tee?

Im kinda just kidding -- I'm oftentimes the same way.  I'm long (tall and lanky) and can boom the driver, but I can hit OB left and right indiscriminately lose plenty of strokes by hitting 3 off the tee.  Enough to keep me in the same 15-17 range as you.

And I know all about the slope (I'm a statistician) but that doesn't mean courses SHOULD be rated for a bogey golfer from tees no bogey golfer should be playing.

[noonan]

A local muni I frequent has 2 regulation courses.

Course 1 - 7200 blue tees, 6700 white tees
Course 2 - 6700 blue tees, 6200 white tees

We play both of them equally - course 1 is noted as being most peoples favorite course

We have walked across the driving range from 1 to 2 because of hacks on the blue tees of course 1

Methinks you confuse hacks with slow players. Some of us hacks get real tired of waiting on the grinding scratch.

When the hacks on the tips of course 1 hi their drives into some trees 80 yards off the tee and protecting the driving range - we head to the other course

There is no way to play a 7200 yard course with water in play on 16 holes if you are a hack

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jason,

Good article titled "Slope on Plus Side of Scratch".
http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/Using-Your-Handicap-Articles---Resources/

How would you allocate strokes to players using different tees in a match if all the tees aren't rated?

[Kevin_D]

High handicap does not equal short hitter.  I'm a 17 (sadly) but hit it as long/longer than all but a few near scratch golfers at my club.

But do you really out drive those scratch guys when you're hitting 3 off the tee?

Im kinda just kidding -- I'm oftentimes the same way.  I'm long (tall and lanky) and can boom the driver, but I can hit OB left and right indiscriminately lose plenty of strokes by hitting 3 off the tee.  Enough to keep me in the same 15-17 range as you.

And I know all about the slope (I'm a statistician) but that doesn't mean courses SHOULD be rated for a bogey golfer from tees no bogey golfer should be playing.

Jason - hitting 3 off the tee (along with needing improvement in my short game) is pretty much the reason I am a 17!  Mind you, I prefer not to play the back tees at most courses, and I think it's a bit absurd for me to try anything 7000+ given my abilities.  At my club, the back and middle tees are actually not much different in length, but I still prefer the middle tees, because the main difference is in 2 long par 3s that go from around 190-210 to 210-225.  Those can be pretty daunting shots if the wind is in your face. Also, 18 goes from a reasonably difficult 350 yard hole with trouble right and left and a steeply uphill 2nd shot to a well bunkered green, to a 420 yard hole with all of that, plus a 200 yard carry over a creek for your drive.  Again, a very doable shot for me, though its fairly challenging mentally knowing how much trouble I can get into.

I just reject the argument that if a course is too difficult, you must be playing the wrong tees.  While length is a big factor for sure, the width of fairways, thickness of rough, amount of trouble off the fairway and around greens and degree of difficulty of putting surfaces all play an important role.  In match play, I will have a better chance of winning on a long but wide open course than a short and tight one.  No two golfers games are alike - high or low handicap.

Along these lines, it will be interesting to see who comes out on top at Merion this year - it is obviously short and will play tight, but I bet the greens will be borderline absurd.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm a 21 handicap, and I play effectively over 7000 yards often.

It's called winter, and I can play 18 holes walking in two hours on empty courses in winter.

Holes that I have reached with driver/wedge cannot be reached with driver/fairway wood in winter.

Slow play is a personality issue, not a handicap issue.

[Doug Siebert]

Am I missing something, or is the entire premise of this thread quite silly?  Let's say someone was able to start a movement that successfully eliminated the slope rating for all tees over a certain distance, and every course in the country went along with it.  I don't think it would reduce the number of people playing those tees all that much.

If you play a round on a course without a slope rating you can't post it, so removing the slope won't stop anyone from playing it just by virtue of not being able to post the score.  Guys who are playing matches against each other will figure out strokes for themselves if they can't use the USGA handicaps, I doubt it will make many move up.

But most of all, I agree with GJ that playing from the wrong tees is fairly far down the list of reasons for slow play.  Yes, you often see hackers playing from tees they shouldn't and playing slowly.  The problem is, almost all of these bozos would play slowly from the ladies tees, because they're slow golfers, not fast golfers playing made slow by playing from tees too long for them.

[Sean_A]

Slow play is a personality issue, not a handicap issue.

GJ

It can't help though can it?  Think about it.  Longer courses must mean slower play - for everybody.  For some, it means really slow play simply because they are completely outmatched.  It would be very different if we were talking about trying to get rounds of golf from 3.5 hours to 3 hours, but we are talking about just trying to get under 4 hours.  If that means a blanket ban on certain tee lengths based on handicap - I am for it.  Perhaps then the long ball hitter who can't break 90 may actually learn how to put the ball in the hole rather than focusing on smash mouth golf. Yes, some people will be unreasonably discriminated against, but if it means that much to play smash mouth golf with balls going as wide as they do far, let them play at times when the courses are empty.  Its probably safer for everybody anyway.  

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Slow play is a personality issue, not a handicap issue.

GJ

It can't help though can it?  Think about it.  Longer courses must mean slower play - for everybody.  For some, it means really slow play simply because they are completely outmatched.  It would be very different if we were talking about trying to get rounds of golf from 3.5 hours to 3 hours, but we are talking about just trying to get under 4 hours.  If that means a blanket ban on certain tee lengths based on handicap - I am for it.  Perhaps then the long ball hitter who can't break 90 may actually learn how to put the ball in the hole rather than focusing on smash mouth golf. Yes, some people will be unreasonably discriminated against, but if it means that much to play smash mouth golf with balls going as wide as they do far, let them play at times when the courses are empty.  Its probably safer for everybody anyway.  

Ciao

Outmatched? What does that mean?

[Sean_A]

Slow play is a personality issue, not a handicap issue.

GJ

It can't help though can it?  Think about it.  Longer courses must mean slower play - for everybody.  For some, it means really slow play simply because they are completely outmatched.  It would be very different if we were talking about trying to get rounds of golf from 3.5 hours to 3 hours, but we are talking about just trying to get under 4 hours.  If that means a blanket ban on certain tee lengths based on handicap - I am for it.  Perhaps then the long ball hitter who can't break 90 may actually learn how to put the ball in the hole rather than focusing on smash mouth golf. Yes, some people will be unreasonably discriminated against, but if it means that much to play smash mouth golf with balls going as wide as they do far, let them play at times when the courses are empty.  Its probably safer for everybody anyway.  

Ciao

Outmatched? What does that mean?

It gets old watching a guy take 90 swipes from 7000 yard tees - that is being completely outmatched.  Its far better for golfers to learn how to hole out before they go anywhere near back to 7000 yards. 

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

I'm a 21 handicap, and I play effectively over 7000 yards often.

It's called winter, and I can play 18 holes walking in two hours on empty courses in winter.

Holes that I have reached with driver/wedge cannot be reached with driver/fairway wood in winter.

Slow play is a personality issue, not a handicap issue.

GJ,
Can you elaborate on what you mean here?

Are you saying that winter makes the normal course you play ,"play" like 7000 yards?
and that you get around quickly?

or that you play a 7000 yard course quickly

because there's a vast difference.

a 6200 yard course "playing" 7000 yards because of restrited winter flight can be walked faster than a course that IS 7000 yards.
and no doubt the angles and forced  carries on a 6200 yard course in winter would be better than on an actual 7000 yard course

[Garland Bayley]

I'm a 21 handicap, and I play effectively over 7000 yards often.

It's called winter, and I can play 18 holes walking in two hours on empty courses in winter.

Holes that I have reached with driver/wedge cannot be reached with driver/fairway wood in winter.

Slow play is a personality issue, not a handicap issue.

GJ,
Can you elaborate on what you mean here?

Are you saying that winter makes the normal course you play ,"play" like 7000 yards?
and that you get around quickly?

or that you play a 7000 yard course quickly

because there's a vast difference.

a 6200 yard course "playing" 7000 yards because of restrited winter flight can be walked faster than a course that IS 7000 yards.
and no doubt the angles and forced  carries on a 6200 yard course in winter would be better than on an actual 7000 yard course

If the quoted time is 2 hours, who cares about the 800 yard difference?
My buddy and I checked in to play Tetherow and they told us it was a 9 mile walk. We walked and played it in 3 hours with some unfortunate ball searching.

Speed of play is a personality thing, not a handicap thing.