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Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Auction 5/20!!!!!
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2013, 07:42:54 PM »
Good Lord Mucci you can get shot playing ball in Camden, let The Union League buy it.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Auction 5/20!!!!!
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2013, 09:03:10 AM »
Pat,

If that is so, I think 11M is a drop in the bucket for what Camden needs.

http://www.camdencounty.com/parks/going-green/open-space-farmland-preservation

Steve,

The suburban and rural areas of Camden County don't need parks and recreation areas, the inner cities do.
That's where the money should be spent, not on buying a golf club.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Auction 5/20!!!!!
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2013, 09:07:46 AM »

Good Lord Mucci you can get shot playing ball in Camden, let The Union League buy it.


Ed,

A friend of mine left Pine Valley at night, after dinner, took some wrong turns, and ended up at a traffic light in Camden when a young man approached the car and signaled him to unlock the door.   When he didn't, the young man shot at him through the window.
My friend hit the gas and sped off, lucky to be alive, with a few cuts from the glass.


Tom ORourke

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Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Auction 5/20!!!!!
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2013, 09:37:01 AM »
This has nothing to do with the city of Camden. Camden County is the driver, and the issue is homes. This section of the county already has too many homes and way too much traffic. The desire to have open space, either a golf course or parks, is preferable to adding another 300 or so homes where none are needed. The local townships have been buying up parcels of land for years to either leave open or sometimes put in soccer fields, parks with walking areas and playgrounds, ortownship buildings. The city of Camden is miles away both literally and figuratively.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Auction 5/20!!!!!
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2013, 09:52:59 AM »

Good Lord Mucci you can get shot playing ball in Camden, let The Union League buy it.


Ed,

A friend of mine left Pine Valley at night, after dinner, took some wrong turns, and ended up at a traffic light in Camden when a young man approached the car and signaled him to unlock the door.   When he didn't, the young man shot at him through the window.
My friend hit the gas and sped off, lucky to be alive, with a few cuts from the glass.


We got chased one night after a Jimmy Buffett concert, that city is like Baghdad. Your PV guy needs a driver call me.

We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Auction 5/20!!!!!
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2013, 11:17:29 AM »

This has nothing to do with the city of Camden. Camden County is the driver, and the issue is homes.

I thought that Camden was the County Seat for Camden County.

Why are you saying that Camden has nothing to do with Camden County ?


This section of the county already has too many homes and way too much traffic. The desire to have open space, either a golf course or parks, is preferable to adding another 300 or so homes where none are needed. The local townships have been buying up parcels of land for years to either leave open or sometimes put in soccer fields, parks with walking areas and playgrounds, ortownship buildings. The city of Camden is miles away both literally and figuratively.


Woodcrest is East of the NJT and a glance at Google Earth indicates that there appear to be a number of open spaces/parks/recreation areas nearby.

The configuration of the golf course, especially the back nine, doesn't' seem to lend itself to homesites.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom ORourke

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From the air Cherry Hill looks fairly green and open, but traffic is awful. I lived in the area for 40 years and it keeps getting worse, so that is why the township was bidding against the developer. The roads can't handle more traffic and the planning never took into account this many developments. I used to drive past Woodcrest on my way to work, which was a 9 mile commute. When I started I went through 8 traffic lights. Ten years later that was up to 19 lights and may be more now. I moved 700 miles away. And I meant that Camden County had nothing to do with Camden in the matter of Woodcrest. The county level politics were focused on keeping the number of homes down. That is why the article has the quote - "I am disappointed and outraged," county Freeholder Jeff Nash said after the auction.
Cherry Hill officials are already asking for it to be open space but no one bids 4 million over the value to leave it alone. The five way intersection just up the street is about to get worse. I always enjoyed playing there and will miss the course, but if (and when) homes go in there it will not be a good thing. My daughter lives just a few miles away so I visit often, so I am very familiar with the area and the traffic. 

Steve_ Shaffer

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http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013305200047

Cherry Hill Mayor Chuck Cahn described himself as disheartened.

“Council and I do not want to see this site developed, and we will not support any change in zoning.”
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steve,
If NY is anything like PA, the Cherry Hill government will lose to a well-funded developer.

Patrick_Mucci

Tom,

People who drive to Pine Valley are always shocked by the volume of traffic in Camden County.

The sprawl from Philadelphia is significant.

When I first visited PV in the early 60's it was fairly rural.
Today, it's almost bumper to bumper and worse than the traffic in Northern NJ.

That may be due to the hub and spoke like nature of the highways emanating from Philly.

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
People who lived in the area as long as I did remember how many farms there were within a ten mile radius of the course. They have all been replaced by homes and offices. You could drive down Rte. 73 and there were orchards from exit 4 of the NJ turnpike down to Voorhees. None exist now and there are stretches down to Cherry Hill that have a similar history. The proximity to the turnpike, 295 and Philly make it a prime location to live and work. The old Cherry Hill is long gone.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2013, 10:09:42 AM »
Breaking news...

The successful bidder plans to keep the course open as a PUBLIC course- at least for now"

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/20130522_Buyers_say_they_ll_Woodcrest_as_golf_course.html

First Montgomery may face financial challenges running Woodcrest as a public course, unable to rely on member dues, said former club president Irv Richter. The fee for Woodcrest members was $7,950 a year, with an additional $2,000 food bill.

"I think they'll get a lot of former members playing - you just pay as you play," Richter said. "Whether they can make money doing that, I'm not real sure."

Building housing on part of the course would subsidize golf - an idea club members pitched years ago that was rejected by the township, Richter said.

First Montgomery may have a similar plan, Richter said.

"They paid a lot of money for the course, which only makes sense if you're going to build on it," he said. "It doesn't make sense as a golf course."
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2013, 05:42:45 PM »
 8) :D ;)

I should be able to get some pretty good information on Woodcrest in short order.  For now it appears there will certainly be golf there this year, and the super is still in place ( Pat Lucas).  He's really good.    I still have to take him to the woodshed (lol) for building the new green on #6 , it's just not Flynny !

Stuart Goldstein

Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2013, 11:10:29 AM »
What is the course like?  I wonder what the new developers will do to it.

Stuart Goldstein

Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2013, 11:15:28 AM »
Quote
A couple of years ago on a Halloween I walked Woodcrest and snapped a few pics:

What is that hole between the 7th and 8th?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2013, 03:34:20 PM »
More breaking news. The course could open soon. 2 weeks?

http://www.courierpostonline.com/article/20130523/NEWS/305230067/Woodcrest-could-reopen-weeks?nclick_check=1

Stuart:

Among the Flynn courses in the Philadelphia area, Woodcrest is at the lower end below:

Huntingdon Valley (27 holes)
Rolling Green,
Lehigh
Lancaster
Green Valley

And probably above:

Plymouth
Bala
Concord

Nevertheless, since it is now public, it will be the only Flynn in the area that anyone can play. It is a fun course to play.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2013, 03:54:04 PM »
Lots of fun with some really wonderful par 3's.

Bob Harris

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Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2013, 04:31:58 PM »
Quote
A couple of years ago on a Halloween I walked Woodcrest and snapped a few pics:

What is that hole between the 7th and 8th?

Not a hole, a practice area.  Looking at the historic aerials, it was built between 1995 and 2002.

Bill Shotzbarger

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Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2013, 12:05:08 AM »
If/when it opens to the public, I'd be interested in playing it for a couple of reasons:

(1) I've never played it, and it's a Flynn.

(2) The more rounds they get, the less likely it will be turned into another subdivision of McMansions. But that's probably inevitable considering the fact that a real estate developer bought it.

Anybody else in?

archie_struthers

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Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2013, 07:33:10 AM »
 ;D :D ;)


Bill I'm sure we could get a group to play there , it's tight and sporty , as they say.  Lots of trees , fantastic  playing conditions over the last decade.

When I caddied there in the late 60's, early 70's (oops , could I be that old)  there were obviously less trees and they played the nines in reverse order of what they do today. I rather liked the old routing , but someone must have decided that the front was the stronger side and reversed them. I'm for guys playing better on the return, as they finish happier.  

Greens have been changed , starting with the third (then 12) , seven (16) and fifteen (6) .  Par has stayed the same , with significant changes expansions to the putting surfaces on all three holes. Of them, only three looks as if it was close to  the original design intent.  Both 7 and 15 were small pod like greens that were very very flat , and really blended right into the ground . The 7th was reworked in the mid seventies if memory serves me and was a stark contrast to the original, which was quite innocuous. It was hard to hold and smallish , prompting the change by the green committee , most of whom had to hit furniture to the small green.

The golf course is tons of fun, and in a great location devoid of lots of options relative to the population. It should be a busy , bustling place .  We can get a nice group together and visit my childhood work home. More to come!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 04:02:33 PM by archie_struthers »

Stuart Goldstein

Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2013, 10:08:15 AM »
Thank you for the feedback. Look forward to playing the course.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2013, 10:03:28 PM »
http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/209599461.html
Officials concede council's Woodcrest meeting violated rules

fred ruttenberg

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Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2013, 03:44:03 PM »
ARCHIE-in the late 70's we had Geoferry Cornish out to review the course and give us some recommendations.  In looking at the 7th green (currrently 16) he noted that the original green had been significantly reduced from its original size .  That green was not changed except for resporing areas that had become rough to the green (the bunker on the left was several yards away from the green.  This restored several of Flynn's interesting countors that had disappeared.  He pointed out where this had happened on other holes such as 1 (old 10) which was resoted at the rear of the green.

Bruce Katona

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Re: Woodcrest CC (Flynn) in Cherry Hill, NJ UPDATE- Breaking news...
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2013, 06:27:35 PM »
$10.1 million is an awful lot of money for a private company to be paying in today's real estate market for a distressed asset.  Camden County, who could bond for the funds over 30 years at municipal rates, could have afforded to overpay as they could sell the acquisition as "open space preservation" or "parkland acquisition".

The group in there now will need to gererate about $600,000 in free cash annually to service the debt on this,a ssuming they can get 60% leverage.....threy still have to come up with $4.1 million cash, plus closing costs.  They will be writing checks for operations and debt service for 2013; tough way to begin a new venture.

Just my $0.02.

BK