St Andrews Private - Australia

[Ben Jarvis]

Construction has commenced on the second course at St Andrews Beach.

St Andrews Beach Private will be exactly that - a private golf club limited to only 281 members.

Can this model work in the current "economic climate", in a location that is surrounded by an abundance of golf courses, which are open to public play at a very low cost?

For more info - http://www.standrewsprivate.com.au/executive-summary

[Ben Stephens]

Thanks Ben,

Just seen the proposed layout by Thomson, Perrett and Lobb Golf Architects. There are a number of double greens evoking the design of the TOC. I am not too sure if a double green works with 2 par 3's. I have seen a number of double greens with a par 3/par 4 holes.

I have noticed that the existing 16th hole on the Gunnamatta course at St Andrews Beach is taken over by this new course and replaced by a very short par 3 in the same direction as the 17th hole.

If it is very private - it would not surprise me if they put fencing around the course to divide the public and private courses.   

Cheers
Ben

[Scott Warren]

Ben S,

No Lobb,  just Thommo and Ross. Lobb is Euro office.

And 16 on the current course appears to have received a stay of execution.

Ben J,

$100k to get in and $5k a year for an 18-hole club by a firm that has three other courses within 15mins - two of which are public and the other belonging to a quality 54-hole club that you can join for a tenth of the cost of this proposed club.

I'm not saying it won't work, but I don't reckon it will be populated by Australians if it does get legs.

[Ben Stephens]

Cheers Scott for the 'inside' information. Looks like Thommo and Ross have not got their 'Lobb' wedge?

Interesting to hear that the current 16th on the Gunnamatta has a stay of execution meaning that the proposed layout on the St Andrews Private Golf Club website is slightly wrong.

Ben S,

No Lobb,  just Thommo and Ross. Lobb is Euro office.

And 16 on the current course appears to have received a stay of execution.

Ben J,

$100k to get in and $5k a year for an 18-hole club by a firm that has three other courses within 15mins - two of which are public and the other belonging to a quality 54-hole club that you can join for a tenth of the cost of this proposed club.

I'm not saying it won't work, but I don't reckon it will be populated by Australians if it does get legs.

[Mark Chaplin]

I was wondering whether the market locally would support $100k up front fees in a non-member owned club especially as golfers will no doubt remember the loss suffered by others in the immediate vicinity not so long ago?

[jonathan_becker]

From two weeks ago....looking left off #16 tee at Doak's course

[Tim_Weiman]

I love St Andrews Beach but don't have a very good feeling about this project.

[Mark_F]

St Andrews Beach Private will be exactly that - a private golf club limited to only 281 members.

Can this model work in the current "economic climate", in a location that is surrounded by an abundance of golf courses, which are open to public play at a very low cost?

It wouldn't work in any economic climate.  They couldn't, or wouldn't, buy the final parcel of land, so have squeezed 18 holes in a parcel not suited to 18 holes.  Some of the chosen green sites are terible.   The only possible people this could appeal to are the high rolling Asians who play Capital. Given their love of spending millions to play a shithole, it might be in with a chance. 

Given that they sent me, as a former member, an information pack, perhaps there aren't even 281 ignorant Asian gamblers to sell to.

$100k to get in and $5k a year for an 18-hole club by a firm that has three other courses within 15mins - two of which are public and the other belonging to a quality 54-hole club that you can join for a tenth of the cost of this proposed club.

It's only $98,000 for the first 50.  51-100 are $120,000, then it keeps going up until the last thirty are $145,000.

This place needs Donald Trump at those prices, not Randall Shreeve.

[Ben Jarvis]

It's hard to imagine there are 281 "Melbournians" prepared to write out a cheque for this sum, given the cost to join The National or any of the Sandbelt Clubs (providing you know enough members).

Ross Perrett, whom has designed the course, spoke on a Melbourne sports radio station last night. He said that he is incorporating some of the same sites for holes which were routed by Tom Doak (as they well naturally there) but the major change will be that many of the holes will be played through natural valleys, opposed to up and over.

Futhermore, Perrett stated that the fairways will be 100% fescue, with the aim of it playing firm and fast, and the bunkers being reverted.

[Anthony Butler]

I was wondering whether the market locally would support $100k up front fees in a non-member owned club especially as golfers will no doubt remember the loss suffered by others in the immediate vicinity not so long ago?

The only relevant comparison in Australia might be the "Gold" corporate packages that places like NSW flog for about $50k entry fee...

In that case, you're talking a world Top 40 course that will survive as long as golf is being played, just 8 miles away from one of the most desirable cities on the planet...  and they generate about a dozen inquiries a year.

Perhaps one of the Top 3-4 Sandbelt courses has a similar deal that has people beating down the front door of the clubhouse, but based on the single data point above, this St. Andrew's Private project looks doomed. 

[Scott Warren]

Anthony,

Your reference to NSWGC raises a valid point: paying megabucks to join a proven successful club that will survive long term is very, very different to speculating the same amount on a new venture that may not - and perhaps on recent examples from throughout Australia, is unlikely to - succeed.

You'd have to think the original St Andrews Beach development identified and brought forward most of those in the region willing to stump up north of $50,000 on a golf club membership, and you'd forgive those people for now being reluctant to do the same thing again.

[Mark_F]

The only relevant comparison in Australia might be the "Gold" corporate packages that places like NSW flog for about $50k entry fee...

In that case, you're talking a world Top 40 course that will survive as long as golf is being played, just 8 miles away from one of the most desirable cities on the planet...  and they generate about a dozen inquiries a year.

Anthony,

The fact that there are about a dozen people a year who think it might be worth $50,000 to join NSW, shows there might in fact be enough stupid Australians to fill the St Andrews Beach Private membership roster.

[Greg Tallman]

Is there a chance that this seemingly crazy concept could harm the Doak course? Are they separate ventures?

[Tom_Doak]

Is there a chance that this seemingly crazy concept could harm the Doak course? Are they separate ventures?

They are separate ventures -- the fellow who bought the whole place has sold the other half of the land off to the developer of the new private course.

I don't see how the new project will harm the existing one.  I was concerned about that at first, because they had declared it essential to the land deal to include my 16th hole as part of the deal, which would have necessitated changing two or three holes of the existing course ... and the fact that they suggested how to change my course did not make me any less resistant to the idea!     Fortunately, I managed to convince them to work around what was already there, and I hope it all works out great for the new venture.

[Mark_F]

They are separate ventures -- the fellow who bought the whole place has sold the other half of the land off to the developer of the new private course.

Tom,

I'm not sure this is entirely true.  The title for the other course also contains about the first 100 metres or so of Gunnamatta 1 and the last 100 metres or so of Gunnamatta 18, in addition to the 16th hole and 17th tee.  Given that I don't think they could subdivide that land, there must be some sort of lease arrangement in place.  Hopefully it's iron clad.

[Tom_Doak]

They are separate ventures -- the fellow who bought the whole place has sold the other half of the land off to the developer of the new private course.

Tom,

I'm not sure this is entirely true.  The title for the other course also contains about the first 100 metres or so of Gunnamatta 1 and the last 100 metres or so of Gunnamatta 18, in addition to the 16th hole and 17th tee.  Given that I don't think they could subdivide that land, there must be some sort of lease arrangement in place.  Hopefully it's iron clad.

Mark:

I remember where the boundary between the two farms was originally ... but is it really still the same line, even after the bankruptcy and the purchase and now this sale?  My understanding was that the owner of the Gunnamatta course (if they still call it that) was able to say which portion of the land to sell to the new venture.  But, I was never 100% sure that I was getting the right info from anyone I talked to down there, which may be a residual feeling from our last go-round.

[David Kelly]

If this new venture succeeds I'll eat Mark Ferguson's cooking.

[Mark_F]

Mark:

I remember where the boundary between the two farms was originally ... but is it really still the same line, even after the bankruptcy and the purchase and now this sale?  My understanding was that the owner of the Gunnamatta course (if they still call it that) was able to say which portion of the land to sell to the new venture.  But, I was never 100% sure that I was getting the right info from anyone I talked to down there, which may be a residual feeling from our last go-round.

Tom,

This is a plan of the title.



Maybe the area in red marked Lot 2 was big enough to subdivide, but I don't think so.  Given that this title contains the entrance road, car park and temporary clubhouse of the Gunnamatta course, I assume they have just done some sort of amicable deal, since they both need each other.

Regardless, the other course is never going to get up.

If this new venture succeeds I'll eat Mark Ferguson's cooking.

!!!
It's probably a better selling point than the course, David.

[Anthony Butler]

The only relevant comparison in Australia might be the "Gold" corporate packages that places like NSW flog for about $50k entry fee...

In that case, you're talking a world Top 40 course that will survive as long as golf is being played, just 8 miles away from one of the most desirable cities on the planet...  and they generate about a dozen inquiries a year.

Anthony,

The fact that there are about a dozen people a year who think it might be worth $50,000 to join NSW, shows there might in fact be enough stupid Australians to fill the St Andrews Beach Private membership roster.

Now, now Mark... We both know that since the Australian Open is over, no one will pay attention to anything that happens in Melbourne until they gather at the MCG in late Sept. to watch some blokes kick a ball between some sticks, but let's not compensate by attracting negative attention for yourselves in the meantime...

[Mark_F]

Now, now Mark... We both know that since the Australian Open is over, no one will pay attention to anything that happens in Melbourne until they gather at the MCG in late Sept. to watch some blokes kick a ball between some sticks, but let's not compensate by attracting negative attention for yourselves in the meantime...

The ways things are going at the moment, Anthony, there might not be anyone left to play off in September...

Those of us interested in fiscal responsibility with taxpayer dollars will surely be paying attention to Melbourne when the Grand Prix arrives. 

[Brett_Morrissy]

Just heard this new course/club advertised on local sports radio, something along the lines of: ...members will own the land and the club AND will receive a return on thier investment...

I cannot believe they are able/allowed to state that in the marketing information.