[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

Hi everyone, newbie here.  I absolutely love this site!  It is fantastic.

This is my first topic.  I believe this to be a valid architectural question (in addition to maintenance).  Please shoot me if I am off base asking this question in this forum (mods:  please delete this topic if that is the case).

I have a question regarding Dormant Bent Greens, and any supposed permanent or long-term damage that may occur from winter play. 

I just recently moved to Colorado from Northern California, and was surprised that my club decided to disallow play moving forward during the winter due to damage that may occur to the greens from winter play.  This is a new phenomenon for me, as this never occurred in NorCal, and I can't quite wrap my head around the reasoning, especially when there are so many other courses that are open in the general area.

I know that many of my friends back east play their greens during the winter, weather permitting.  Obviously we are at a very different altitude here, so I'm not sure if that is a factor or not.  But I would think that the spring grow season would allow the greens to rebound from any damage that may have occurred while the grass is dormant?

In addition, are there any mitigating factors from a maintenance perspective that could be put in play that would help soften the damage, or help the greens rebound quicker in the spring while still allowing winter play?

Obviously I'm not an expert on the subject.  I would appreciate any input you all have in helping me understand why I'm not playing golf, and how prevalent this approach is across the country during the winter/dormant season.

[Greg Chambers]

Barry,

I worked on the maintenance side in and around Denver for about twenty years.  At all of the courses I worked, we remained open during the winter, weather permitting.  We would cut multiple cups in the greens and ask the golfers to rotate the flagstick upon reaching the green.  This helped to spread the wear and tear.

I never saw any long term damage caused by playing on dormant bent greens.  In fact, I preferred the course when it was dormant, as it provided for a completely different type of experience.

[John Kavanaugh]

Barry,

How old is your super and has he worked there long?  This is a horrible precedent that sounds like a veiled attempt at cost cutting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Barry,

Many, if not most clubs in the Northeast close their regular greens and create temporary winter greens in the fronting fairway.

Some clubs cover their greens with tarps to prevent ice damage

I'm an advocate of closing the greens in the winter and covering them with tarps because the grass is dormant and can't recover from any damage.

Given the number of rounds played in December, January and February, and the expectation of the relatively vast number of golfers in the summer, I think it's a prudent practice.

The problem with most golfers is that they tend to view everything about the game, solely through their eyes and from their perspective, rarely, if ever, looking at and considering the broader spectrum.

You have to look at this from a different perspective.

WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE GOLF COURSE, and not what's in the temporary best interest of individual members

Hope that helps

[Anthony_Nysse]

WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE GOLF COURSE, and not what's in the temporary best interest of individual members

Hope that helps

Unfortunately, this isn't usually the case at 95% of clubs. Golf has changed, it's different now. Most clubs are even more concerned with member satisfaction, retaining members and ultimately, $$ figures. Most clubs walk a fine line with achieving yearly goals, while not rocking the boat with memberships. No one wants to tell and member, "no." This is also part of the reason you see some clubs skipping an aerification, moving topdressing and other cultural practices around or doing than at the VERY end of the year, so play is not disturbed. It's a different animal now. I am fortunate to work at a club that views things like Mr. Mucci. Though expectations are always high, the tools and time are provided to produce such.

[Kevin_D]

Barry,

Many, if not most clubs in the Northeast close their regular greens and create temporary winter greens in the fronting fairway.

Some clubs cover their greens with tarps to prevent ice damage

I'm an advocate of closing the greens in the winter and covering them with tarps because the grass is dormant and can't recover from any damage.

Given the number of rounds played in December, January and February, and the expectation of the relatively vast number of golfers in the summer, I think it's a prudent practice.

The problem with most golfers is that they tend to view everything about the game, solely through their eyes and from their perspective, rarely, if ever, looking at and considering the broader spectrum.

You have to look at this from a different perspective.

WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE GOLF COURSE, and not what's in the temporary best interest of individual members

Hope that helps

This is the practice at my club, and I believe has been standard for quite some time - my dad recently mentioned to be how my grandfather used to play at Pelham Country Club all through the winter, though they would have temporary greens set up.  This would have been 50 years ago.

I'd add that golf is still plenty of fun even with temp greens.

[BHoover]

I'll admit that there have been times when I get frustrated that my club either used temporary greens or shut down entirely for the winter. But then I remind myself that the inconvenience of temp greens or not being able to play during the winter is worth it if it means that the greens will be in great shape during the rest of the year. In other words, I have no problem with my super doing whatever is needed for the good of the golf course.

[John Kavanaugh]

What a load of antiquated crap given our recent warm winters.  Living in Southern Indiana I will play 15 times during the months of December, January and February.  Just this last week the temps hit 64 and then sunk to 18.  The management of the club saw the impending forecast and sent the membership an email inviting us to play on a Tuesday when the clubhouse is normally closed during the winter.  Our small parking lot was near capacity.

Instead of snowbirds chirping and supers whining could we please be shown evidence of damage caused by winter play?  No member is as selfish as some of you indicate that they would trade a day of playing in the winter for poor greens in the summer.  I've played winter golf my entire life and have never seen any damage caused by our desire to enjoy the game.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Instead of snowbirds chirping and supers whining could we please be shown evidence of damage caused by winter play?  No member is as selfish as some of you indicate that they would trade a day of playing in the winter for poor greens in the summer.  I've played winter golf my entire life and have never seen any damage caused by our desire to enjoy the game.

Here you go:

http://www.usga.org/course_care/articles/other/winter_play/Politics-Religion-and-Winter-Play-on-Greens/

[John Kavanaugh]

Instead of snowbirds chirping and supers whining could we please be shown evidence of damage caused by winter play?  No member is as selfish as some of you indicate that they would trade a day of playing in the winter for poor greens in the summer.  I've played winter golf my entire life and have never seen any damage caused by our desire to enjoy the game.

Here you go:

http://www.usga.org/course_care/articles/other/winter_play/Politics-Religion-and-Winter-Play-on-Greens/

Am I correct in reading that the above article is from 1987?  I would have thought that the golf course superintendents, turfgrass scientists, and agronomists so concerned about the playability of the course in the spring would have made advances in the last quarter century that would alleviate the minor problems addressed in the article.  I copied the summation below and would confidently answer that yes the possible damage by winter play is worth the goodwill that it creates from the members who take advantage of winter play.  Or the "addicts" as we are referred to in the article.


Winter play can do an inordinate amount of damage to the health and playability of the greens in relation to the number of rounds. Every golf course considering winter play should question whether or not it is worth the risk of damaging the greens and affecting their playability for a significant period of the regular seasonably allowing a relatively small percentage of the club's golfers to use them at that time. In the view of most golf course superintendents, turfgrass scientists, and agronomists, it is not. Unfortunately, even the considered opinion of the experts is unlikely to separate winter play from politics and religion as a topic of controversy among golfers.

[Paul OConnor]

Instead of snowbirds chirping and supers whining could we please be shown evidence of damage caused by winter play?  No member is as selfish as some of you indicate that they would trade a day of playing in the winter for poor greens in the summer.  I've played winter golf my entire life and have never seen any damage caused by our desire to enjoy the game.

Here you go:

http://www.usga.org/course_care/articles/other/winter_play/Politics-Religion-and-Winter-Play-on-Greens/

What a pile of crap. I was expecting that there might be some actual studies, or data of some kind in this report.  There is nothing in this report that quantifies in any way the authors contentions.  Apparently, walking on greens is bad for them.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I 'read' that there are different factors to take into consideration, but here's a blog from someone who knows more than I do.

 http://ohccturf.blogspot.com/2012/01/winter-play-on-greens.html

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's not forget that in 1987 supers had jobs for life and if a member left there was a line at the door begging to get in. Maybe it is time for the USGA to at least revise the use of the term "addict" when describing those of us left supporting the game.  The old days of less play with equal revenues are long gone.

I don't brag about Victoria National very often on here, at least compared to Dismal, but when I received that email from them saying that they had monitored the weather and would like for the members to enjoy the course on a day when it is normally closed it made me very proud.  No wonder they signed up 34 new initiation fee paying members last year.

[John Kavanaugh]

I 'read' that there are different factors to take into consideration, but here's a blog from someone who knows more than I do.

 http://ohccturf.blogspot.com/2012/01/winter-play-on-greens.html

That is a reasonable stance.  As a clinically obese individual I have felt my feet sinking into greens during the situation that the blogger described.  Of course that is a time for greens to be closed.

[Paul OConnor]

I 'read' that there are different factors to take into consideration, but here's a blog from someone who knows more than I do.

 http://ohccturf.blogspot.com/2012/01/winter-play-on-greens.html

That is a reasonable stance.  As a clinically obese individual I have felt my feet sinking into greens during the situation that the blogger described.  Of course that is a time for greens to be closed.

Perhaps the club could have flags in temporary greens, for overweight golfers who drag their feet, and flags in the real greens for everyone else. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

I don't know of any course that has lost a putting green due to winter play, but I do a couple of courses whose greens take longer to 'shape up' in the spring because they allow the practice.
Around here we can experience cold springs lasting into May, so any damage takes longer to grow out.

[Pete_Pittock]

I remember a set of footprints on the 6th green at Tualatin CC. After a bout of snow and a hard freeze for 3-4 days a member walked out of his house onto the green in January and left a set of footprints which could still be seen in April.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

A few winters ago we had a series of snow storms, warming trends, cold trends, more snow, more melting, more freezing.

The result, it took the greens over a year to recover from the ice damage caused when the snow melted, then froze on the putting surface.

Why risk the greens for an entire season on the whims of a few golfers who want to play winters golf.

Why aren't temporary greens sufficient for your purpose.

By the way, I've never heard of great rounds or course records being shot in the months of December, January and February in the Northeast, have you ?

[Greg Chambers]

Patrick,

Playing golf on dormant bentgrass has absolutely nothing to do with ice damage.  The two aren't related in the least.  The question in the OP was whether or not playing on dormant bentgrass caused damage to the turf, and my experience is that no, it doesn't.  Not long term.

[John Kavanaugh]

The OP is asking in the context of a modern course located in Colorado.  There is something about snow at elevation that is refreshing compared to the harshness of the Northeast.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

Patrick,

Playing golf on dormant bentgrass has absolutely nothing to do with ice damage.  The two aren't related in the least.  The question in the OP was whether or not playing on dormant bentgrass caused damage to the turf, and my experience is that no, it doesn't.  Not long term.

Could not agree more.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Patrick,
Playing golf on dormant bentgrass has absolutely nothing to do with ice damage.  The two aren't related in the least.  The question in the OP was whether or not playing on dormant bentgrass caused damage to the turf, and my experience is that no, it doesn't.  Not long term.

Could not agree more.

So, would you guys agree with the approach from the super at Oakland Hills (posted earlier) to protect his greens, and with this study from Clemson which suggests that there is "immediate and negative impact on creeping bentgrass turf, but turf recovers when temperatures warm."

http://www2.gcsaa.org/GCM/2008/march/pdfs/wintertraffic.pdf

[Jim Smith Jr]

At the Cricket Club our Director of Grounds believes that if golfers are going to play they deserve the best conditions possible, regardless of the time of year.  He will mow and/or roll greens in the dead of winter if the opportunity allows. It's not uncommon for the greens to roll at 11 or 12 in the middle of winter and it sure is nice when players walk off the course commenting that they can't believe how good the conditions are mid-winter.  He's one of the best in the country and we trust that if it was going to be a problem he wouldn't do what he does.

[Anthony_Nysse]

At the Cricket Club our Director of Grounds believes that if golfers are going to play they deserve the best conditions possible, regardless of the time of year.  He will mow and/or roll greens in the dead of winter if the opportunity allows. It's not uncommon for the greens to roll at 11 or 12 in the middle of winter and it sure is nice when players walk off the course commenting that they can't believe how good the conditions are mid-winter.  He's one of the best in the country and we trust that if it was going to be a problem he wouldn't do what he does.

Dans a good Supt and classmate of mine. There are many reasons that he is up for Superintendent of the year. Jaka certainly has a different feeling about him from his time at Vic. Dan is well respected in the industry for his approach and drive.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Patrick,
Playing golf on dormant bentgrass has absolutely nothing to do with ice damage.  The two aren't related in the least.  The question in the OP was whether or not playing on dormant bentgrass caused damage to the turf, and my experience is that no, it doesn't.  Not long term.

Could not agree more.

So, would you guys agree with the approach from the super at Oakland Hills (posted earlier) to protect his greens, and with this study from Clemson which suggests that there is "immediate and negative impact on creeping bentgrass turf, but turf recovers when temperatures warm."

http://www2.gcsaa.org/GCM/2008/march/pdfs/wintertraffic.pdf

They have 36 holes at Oakland Hills, so it's a little different monster. The south course is also poa which is notoriously weaker that bent, when it comes to cold weather. Any turf that isnt actively growing  runs the risk of some sort of damage. Whether its unrepairable or unacceptable is up to the committee.

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