[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:

The idea of "using a view" is an interesting concept to mull over.  In some ways, the golf course architect is creating 18 "paintings" or vignettes from the 18 starting points for each hole.  I imagine that this idea of fixed perspective plays a role in landscape architecture as well, but it seems much more an idea that is aligned with landscape painting.

Are there examples of holes that were built solely to capture a particular line of sight?  Have you had to sacrifice a view because it was impossible to make the individual hole work or because the hole that would work did not fit into the overall canvas of the course?

Sven

[Philippe Binette]

Most great courses look great just about everywhere you look...

it's a composition.

[JMEvensky]

Most great courses look great just about everywhere you look...

it's a composition.

Would it be fair to say that great courses are artistic enough to cover up the science?

[Sven Nilsen]

Philippe:

I agree that most great courses look great from just about any angle.  But the architect only has so many opportunities to set a vantage point, and to maximize the visual impressions made from those vantage points.

One of the best examples of the mix of aesthetics and functionality I can think of is the extension of 18 at Pebble Beach by Fowler.  By adding the tee box set out on the curve of the coast he turned a hole with a view straight down the fairway into a tee with a vantage point that offered sight-lines across the rocky coast.  It also turned the straightforward drive with water on the left and ob right into a drive where the angle and shot shape became key factors.  It made the hole better, both visually (I doubt anyone would argue with the beauty of the 18th) and by the demands placed on the golfer.

Sven

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

The idea of "using a view" is an interesting concept to mull over.  In some ways, the golf course architect is creating 18 "paintings" or vignettes from the 18 starting points for each hole.  I imagine that this idea of fixed perspective plays a role in landscape architecture as well, but it seems much more an idea that is aligned with landscape painting.

Are there examples of holes that were built solely to capture a particular line of sight?  Have you had to sacrifice a view because it was impossible to make the individual hole work or because the hole that would work did not fit into the overall canvas of the course?

Sven

Sven:

I don't think many designers start laying out their holes with aligning on a particular view first and foremost in their minds.  But, once a hole is decided upon, there are often chances to shift the position of tee or green a little bit in order to strengthen the alignment and the view.

Two examples that I can think of off the top of my head, by other designers:

1.  The 13th hole at New South Wales is aligned so that when you look at the approach, you are looking through the green and all the way across Botany Bay to the point of land on the other side.  Dr. MacKenzie did that sort of thing often.

2.  The 17th hole at the National Golf Links has a fantastic view past the green and down the shore of Peconic Bay.  But the tee that offers that view (up by the windmill) was not Macdonald's original tee; it was added a few years later, adding a few yards to the hole but also dramatically improving the beauty of the hole.

[Philippe Binette]

JMEvensky:

if I follow my previous post:

Art needs creativity...

but to be creative, you need to study, learn and develop a craft.

a craft is skilled work... and your skill come from talent and more importantly, experimentation.

experimentation is the basis of science.


in golf course architecture.. you can have a great idea (creativity)

but if you haven't study and learn other courses, you won't know if the idea will work...

so you study and your idea work.. conceptually...

now does it work technically, can it be grown, does it drain, would it be maintained under your inital intent...

this knowledge comes from experimentation.

if you've done enough experimentation, like learn the minimum slope to drain in a pipe or on grass, and you documentate it... then it becomes science.

You are dead on... great art is being able to integrate the science in such perfection that it look seemless

[Blake Conant]

'It's a profession that demands a rare blend of characteristics: the heart of an artist, the mind of an engineer, and the soul of a golfer. Alister MacKenzie.

This is a Herbert Warren Wind quote from the foreword of a more recent edition of MacKenzie's "Golf Architecture"

[Neil White]

Am I right in thinking that the site will dictateswhich of the two - art or science - takes the precedent when designing a course?

Neil.

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