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Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2013, 07:56:16 AM »

Now that's funny... gotta love that Brit humour.  Is this a serious problem that people want to move there?

Seattle has kinda the same attitude...

http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2012/03/25/25-reasons-you-should-never-move-to-seattle/#4013-1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_the_Bastards_Out


Rich Goodale

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Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2013, 08:57:07 AM »
Good to hear from you again, Craig.

Yes it is semi-serious.  Bulgaria and Romania are about to be admitted into the EU, and the Brits are panicking at the thought of 10s or 100s of thousands Balkans invading their shores, legally!  Of course, the influx of Poles and Czechs and Slovaks and Latvians etc. over the past 10 years has been extraordinarily and positively transformational for Old Blightly, but the Xenophobes are still unconvinced.  So, the UK government is in fact planning to broadcast ads on the tellies of those Johnny Foreigners telling them that Great Britain ain't that great so why don't you just stay in the Balkans where you belong....

There's nowt queer as folk, as Dr. MacKenzie used to say.....
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2013, 09:31:39 AM »

So why the UK?  Is the free health care and other social programs?   It obviously is not about the weather, is it the golf?  Do the new immigrants play golf?

Are there no restrictions on immigrating to the UK?   Wait, they let you move there.  :)




Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 09:56:57 AM »
Craig

Theoretically no restrictions if you are an EU citizen (or if you marry one....).  If you are, say, a Bulgarian and trying to get ahead in the world, would you rather move to, say, Greece and learn to speak a language which was useful 20 centuries ago but useless now and have no chance to get a job in the bargain, or England, where if you have no skills but want to work you have no local compettion and you get to learn a dialect (English) of the lingua franca of the new world order (American)?

Even Mucci could figure out the answer to that question....

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 09:58:49 AM »
Even Mucci could figure out the answer to that question....
and then argue endlessly and perversely in favour of a different answer.....
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 10:04:11 AM »
Even Mucci could figure out the answer to that question....
and then argue endlessly and perversely in favour of a different answer.....

YES, AND IN PUKE GREEN!!!!
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jim Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 10:22:26 AM »
One of our young caddies at Dornoch used this line after we were remarking about how nice the previous day was.. about 65 and sunny in Sept.  I thought it would make a great poster for this series.   

I love summer.  It's my favorite day of the year. 
I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world.  This makes it hard to plan the day.  E. B. White

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 10:28:49 AM »
Craig

Theoretically no restrictions if you are an EU citizen (or if you marry one....).  If you are, say, a Bulgarian and trying to get ahead in the world, would you rather move to, say, Greece and learn to speak a language which was useful 20 centuries ago but useless now and have no chance to get a job in the bargain, or England, where if you have no skills but want to work you have no local compettion and you get to learn a dialect (English) of the lingua franca of the new world order (American)?

Even Mucci could figure out the answer to that question....

Rich

That pretty much leaves Spain out also..

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.



Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 10:55:50 AM »
Rich do you live in an Eastern European enclave or are your "extraordinarily and positively transformational" views from reading the papers?
Cave Nil Vino

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2013, 11:23:47 AM »
Rich do you live in an Eastern European enclave or are your "extraordinarily and positively transformational" views from reading the papers?

No Mark

I actually live in a pretty boring English/wannabe-English enclave in Scotland, but have had the opportunity in my travels throughout the UK to develop friendships with many extraordinary recent and not so recent immigrants from Eastern Europe and elsewhere who blow the socks off the "natives" of this sceptred isle in terms of ambition, intelligence and tolerance.  You should get out more and smell the flowers, compadre....

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2013, 03:51:15 AM »
Sadly I do get out which is why I'm dealing with increases in gun crime, prostitution and people trafficking directly linked to Eastern Europe.

In the 90s and 00s our working lives were made harder by the organised gangs of Romanian thieves who plagued and continue to plague London.

Of course the majority are always hardworking and keen to get on but there is a significant underbelly of serious organised criminality attached and these people do not work within the moral framework of this country.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2013, 04:00:25 AM »
Sadly I do get out which is why I'm dealing with increases in gun crime, prostitution and people trafficking directly linked to Eastern Europe.

In the 90s and 00s our working lives were made harder by the organised gangs of Romanian thieves who plagued and continue to plague London.

Of course the majority are always hardworking and keen to get on but there is a significant underbelly of serious organised criminality attached and these people do not work within the moral framework of this country.
And those with that motley collection of genes that enable them to call themselves British all do?  I'm sure we all yearn for loveable rogues like the Kray brothers.  Things were so much better in the old days.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2013, 06:42:45 AM »
Just from my own experience in St Andrews it was the Poles and other ex-soviet bloc nationals that were doing all the crappy jobs.  The best friends we made during our stay were a Polish couple and a Lithuanian.  Also none of them were staying in the UK they were making as much as they could in the summer holidays to go to Uni at home.  Also unless it's very different to Australia it's not like there's a lot of competition to fill minimum wage jobs.  The scottish tourist industry would grind to a halt without them.

Our two major political parties have very similar attitudes to unskilled migrants.  They apparently have forgotten the contribution that post-WWII and Vietnam War migrants added to our country.  Yes, with most of these groups there is an accompanying assimilation problem, at its most disruptive in high density metropolitan areas, but on balance I would say we're well in front.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 07:31:10 AM »
Sean

Foreign workers in the Scottish hotel trade is nothing new or even relatively recent. However the large influx of eastern europeans has had a big impact on this country. Whether you view it as a good or a bad thing depends on your point of view. Mark C sees it from a law enforcement point of view and he is no doubt correct about the issues he's talking about. Many of the workers from eastern europe were tradesmen and pretty good tradesmen at that however they undercut a lot of Scottish tradesmen and effectively did them out of jobs and reduced their income quite significantly. On the back of the first influx you also got pretend tradesmen who had about as much idea of plumbing, joinery or whatever as Her Majesty the Queen.

So as I say, it depends on your point of view whether its been a good or a bad thing but its certainly had an impact.

Niall

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 09:12:36 AM »
One of the big differences from the influx of immigrants in the 50s and 60s is people were moving here lock stock and barrell. Now the object is to earn money to send and eventually take home. This means there is a negative impact in the economy in the longterm as wealth is removed from the UK.
Cave Nil Vino

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 10:11:13 AM »
Good to hear from you again, Craig.

Yes it is semi-serious.  Bulgaria and Romania are about to be admitted into the EU, and the Brits are panicking at the thought of 10s or 100s of thousands Balkans invading their shores, legally!

Rich,

Bulgaria and Romania have been members since 2007, but I believe there was some clause restricting freedom or movement for a numer of years. I recall the UK and some other countries invoked this clause, while other countries such as Ireland didn't. Romanians and Bulgarians are free to travel to Ireland, and as you don't need to show your passport to travel (by boat) onwards to the UK, many Romanians and Bulgarians entered the UK in this way.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 10:13:24 AM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »

David_Tepper

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Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 10:25:15 AM »
"One of the big differences from the influx of immigrants in the 50s and 60s is people were moving here lock stock and barrell. Now the object is to earn money to send and eventually take home. This means there is a negative impact in the economy in the longterm as wealth is removed from the UK."

Mark C.-

I am not sure this is actually the case. If a young person (in their 20's)  comes to the UK from Eastern Europe to work for a couple of years, manages to save 5,000 or 10,000 pounds and then returns home with their savings, how much has that person paid in income tax and VAT during their residence in the UK?

A person such as this has likely paid far more in taxes in the UK than they have received in benefits from the government. Such a person would likely not be enrolling a child in the school system, would likely not be accessing the national health system while resident in the UK and would not be residing in the UK as an old-age pensioner receiving government benefits. This certainly offsets a substantial amount of whatever capital leaves the UK when such a person returns to their homeland.  

DT      
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 10:27:58 AM by David_Tepper »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 01:45:09 PM »
David

I'm not at all certain of their tax status but I imagine the counter argument goes that the guy born and bred in the UK who is done out of a job because the other guy from Romania is either cheaper or just better, then gets paid benefits and all sorts when unemployed. Meanwhile the Romanian guy has saved his money rather than spending it in the UK, he may well pay taxes here maybe not, I'm not sure, but in not spending his money here he's not helping the local economy. He's effectively taking money out the system.

Now thats the guy who works ! For those that come over here just looking for a job and nothing lined up, they will presumably be eligible for benefits as a citizen of an EU member. You can also bet that some of them have weighed up the respective welfare systems and will be looking at seeing whether they can milk it for all its worth with no intention of getting a job. Hard not to be cynical really.

Niall

David_Tepper

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Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2013, 02:02:22 PM »
Niall -

I recall reading several years ago in the Wall Street Journal that the city of Glasgow advertised in Poland to hire bus drivers because they could not fill the jobs (for what reasons I do not know) from the local population. At least in this instance, the locals were not being "done out of a job."

DT

   


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 02:24:02 PM »
David

No doubt. I recall when I worked in Glasgow city centre a few years ago and used to get a bus the short distance into town and often found I was the only Scot on the bus including the driver. The question is, why no locals going for that job, is it because the wages have gone down on the basis of foreign labour willing to take less, perhaps not.

Niall

David_Tepper

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Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 02:30:27 PM »
Niall -

From an article about Britain in the current (January 26 - February 1) issue of The Economist:

"Yet the job market is humming. Data released on January 23rd shows that employment has topped previous peaks."

DT

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 02:34:35 PM »
David

I take it thats an old copy from 2003 ? If not, don't make any investment decisions based on that magazines recommendations.

Niall

Gib_Papazian

Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 02:42:32 PM »
"A characteristic of our present chaos is the dramatic migration of tribes. They are on the move from east to west, from south to north. Liberal tradition requires that borders must always be open to those in search of safety or even the pursuit of happiness. But now with so many millions of people on the move, even the great-hearted are becoming edgy. Norway is large enough and empty enough to take in 40 to 50 million homeless Bengalis. If the Norwegians say that, all in all, they would rather not take them in, is this to be considered racism? I think not. It is simply self-preservation, the first law of species.”

-Gore Vidal


The United States has welcomed in millions of immigrants from all corners in the last 30 years, but the majority do not have the slightest interest in embracing our way of life. This is not a blanket statement of course, but there is no denying our system of absolute tolerance for multiculturalism - no matter how contrary to our mores and behavioral expectations - has created a horrific mess.

California in particular is a tinder box and about 2" from a violent breakdown of our entire social construct. It is true that most nations begin to decay without an influx of new and eager immigrants, but our largesse has also attracted a Trojan Horse full of criminals with no intention of playing by the rules.

From this side of the pond, Europe appears to be a cautionary tale of the danger of allowing unrestricted immigration of Muslims particularly. What will you do when - having economically encouraged irresponsible breeding in the newcomers - find yourselves in the minority? If entire cities become dominated by Islamist clerics, who will REALLY be governing?

This problem is hardly confined to one particular religion, but more a function of whether immigrants embrace the opportunity to pursue happiness in relative freedom. My Grandmother warned me before she passed away that we had "let too many junky people in this country." We extended an indiscriminate hand to a bunch of Russian Armenians and they brought violence, warfare, corruption and terror to Glendale, Los Angeles and Burbank.

Those bastards came to this country with a history of gangland violence in Russia, but we had to be sooooooo tolerant and soooooo welcoming that it never occurred to anybody they would do the same here, only worse. Nobody is better at gaming the system than Russians and Eastern Europeans in particular. Survival in their homeland depends on covertly breaking the law and now you want to invite a million of them into your neighborhood?

All at once?

They have been slaughtering each other in the Balklands for hundreds of years - is the U.K. under the hallucination that everybody is going play nice just because they are in a different sandbox?    

Good luck with that.


« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 02:52:34 PM by Gib Papazian »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For those of you thinking of moving to the UK....
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2013, 02:51:36 PM »
Gib

I wouldn't argue with a word you say. Unfortunately its not entirely in the hands of the UK government as we had previously signed up to the European Union and that means taking the good with the bad. In this instance, however many Romanians.

David Cameron is promising a vote on whether to stay in Europe. I wonder if resident eastern europeans will get a vote  ::)

Niall