[Sven Nilsen]

MacKenzie had nothing to do with the old course?

Explain yourself.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MacKenzie had nothing to do with the old course?

Explain yourself.


He didn't design it

[Sven Nilsen]

I never claimed he did.  I stated he was the renowned expert on the course at that time.

Name one working architect from 1929 that was more familiar with the Old Course than MacKenzie.

Also, please explain to me the significance of Mac sending Jones a signed copy of his book in 1927 and how that fits into the timeline of events noted above, specifically with regards to your false conception that jones was not aware of Mac's design principles until he saw cypress and pasa in 1929.

Spin away.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

And if we're taking Mac's word on why he wanted hollins to visit, why aren't we taking it with regards to jones' contributions.  To borrow your line, you can't have it both ways.

[Michael George]

How about Merion......or is that still too controversial of a subject.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

And if we're taking Mac's word on why he wanted hollins to visit, why aren't we taking it with regards to jones' contributions.  

Because there's no specific attribution !

MacKenzie's probably thanking Jones and vice versa, in the same way that Pascucci and Keiser thanked Tom Doak.
Mutual admiration PR

To borrow your line, you can't have it both ways.

I'm not, I'm consistent in my applications.

[Sven Nilsen]

And if we're taking Mac's word on why he wanted hollins to visit, why aren't we taking it with regards to jones' contributions. 

Because there's no specific attribution !

MacKenzie's probably thanking Jones in the same way that Pascucci and Keiser thanked Tom Doak.

To borrow your line, you can't have it both ways.

I'm not, I'm consistent in my applications.

I think you've got your roles reversed there.  Not the first time you've been wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I never claimed he did.  I stated he was the renowned expert on the course at that time.

By whose evaluation.

Name one working architect from 1929 that was more familiar with the Old Course than MacKenzie.

COLT

Also, please explain to me the significance of Mac sending Jones a signed copy of his book in 1927 and how that fits into the timeline of events noted above, specifically with regards to your false conception that jones was not aware of Mac's design principles until he saw cypress and pasa in 1929.

Jones was the # 1 amateur golfer in the world, why wouldn't he send him a book.

I read Mac's book, but, it wasn't until I personally witnessed his work that I had a true understanding of his design principles and style.

You can read a book about sex, diagrams and all, but, you really have no concept about how it feels until you experience it.

Ditto golf courses.

Read page 295 in "Scotland's Gift"

[Sven Nilsen]

I never claimed he did.  I stated he was the renowned expert on the course at that time.

By whose evaluation.

Name one working architect from 1929 that was more familiar with the Old Course than MacKenzie.

COLT

Also, please explain to me the significance of Mac sending Jones a signed copy of his book in 1927 and how that fits into the timeline of events noted above, specifically with regards to your false conception that jones was not aware of Mac's design principles until he saw cypress and pasa in 1929.

Jones was the # 1 amateur golfer in the world, why wouldn't he send him a book.

I read Mac's book, but, it wasn't until I personally witnessed his work that I had a true understanding of his design principles and style.

You can read a book about sex, diagrams and all, but, you really have no concept about how it feels until you experience it.

Ditto golf courses.

Read page 295 in "Scotland's Gift"

Colt was the only acceptable answer (and its still a debate), and at that point he wasn't traveling abroad to design golf courses.

But reading that book makes you want the real thing, and that's the point.

My copy of Scotland's Gift ends on p. 275.

But by all means, keep trying to convince yourself you're right regarding the Jones/MacKenzie relationship timeline.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Colt was the only acceptable answer

Gee thanks.
You asked the question and I answered it, COLT was more familiar with TOC than MacKenzie.
COLT was a member of TOC

(and its still a debate),

The only debate is in your mind.
COLT was more familiar with TOC in 1929, irrespective of where he was in 1929

and at that point he wasn't traveling abroad to design golf courses.

Where he was is irrelevant.  He was more familiar with TOC than Macakenzie and COLT was a member of TOC

But reading that book makes you want the real thing, and that's the point.

No it doesn't.
It's informative.
If you never heard of or saw CPC, Pasatiempo and his other course and just read the book, you wouldn't want to rush out to play his courses.
Ditto with Ross's book


My copy of Scotland's Gift ends on p. 275.

No wonder you're so uninformed 

But by all means, keep trying to convince yourself you're right regarding the Jones/MacKenzie relationship timeline.

I don't need to convince myself.
YOU have to convince everyone by producing documented evidence clearly showing exactly what Jones contributed to the routing, hole and feature design.   We have ample evidence of MacKenzie's detailed contribution and work, you have nothing to show for what Jones specifically did, architecturally.

Good luck on your mission

[Sven Nilsen]

If the only thing I read from Golf Architecture was MacKenzie's thirteen features of an ideal hole, it would be enough for me to want to see every course he ever built.

[Sven Nilsen]

As for MacKenzie being the renowned expert on The Old Course, here are his words from 1926:

"I do not think anyone has studied the Old Course at St Andrews more than I have, and the more I reflect the less inclined I am to alter any of the holes, and particularly the 1st and 18th"

Perhaps this was a dig at his former partner and mentor, but perhaps he was being sincere.  By all accounts, the two men were still on good terms despite having severed their working relationship.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As for MacKenzie being the renowned expert on The Old Course, here are his words from 1926:

"I do not think anyone has studied the Old Course at St Andrews more than I have, and the more I reflect the less inclined I am to alter any of the holes, and particularly the 1st and 18th"

Just because someone praises himself doesn't make it true, unless you're telling me that everything Donald Trump says is now the "Gospel"

Perhaps this was a dig at his former partner and mentor, but perhaps he was being sincere. 

But, you don't know that.
They certainly didn't part on good terms and Colt was very familiar with TOC.

By all accounts, the two men were still on good terms despite having severed their working relationship.

I think you'll find that "good terms" may be a generous overstatement.

As to ANGC it appears that Cliff Roberts was involved more than many thought.

In a written report in July of 1931, the club stated that MacKenzie laid out on the 200 to 1 scale map, 18 holes and staked this roughly on the ground.  Nowhere does it mention that Jones assisted in the original laying of course out.  That would be an enormous, glaring and disrespectful omission had Jones assisted in that endeavor.

The report indicated that Mackenzie wanted the land cleared.  And that Mackenzie would refine the original lay out (200-1) and provide detailed plans that he would bring with him on his intended trip in September.

Again, nowhere is Jones mentioned in this "process"

In June of 1932, a 100-1 detailed map is submitted by Mackenzie.

What's also interesting is that Mackenzie held the views of professional golfers in low regard.
Granted that Jones was an amateur, but, his game was as elite as they come, making him a peer in ability, to the professionals.
Yet, the course was always intended to challenge the best golfers.

Jones himself was always sure to credit MacKenzie as the architect for the ANGC and himself ONLY as an involved observer and President of the club.

That hardly sounds like a collaboration. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

I'm going to refrain from extending this debate, as I consider this conversation to be the same as the discussion we were having in the other thread.  That being the conversation we agreed to drop after Tom Doak graciously offered to field questions if we would.

Give it a rest for a bit.  You might come back a bit refreshed.

Sven

"Many children want to have the last word, of course, but here are eight types of adults who may always seem to need the last word. These are people who are:

know-it-alls
dense
stubborn
intoxicated
excited
always needing to be right
consensus-driven
conversation hogs

The most important thing to remember when handling a "last worder" is that the last word has no value in itself. When you accept this, you will experience less annoyance and a reduced temptation to battle over the last word."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

So, it was OK for you to have the last word, but not me ?

I just addressed your reply regarding MacKenzie.

I merely did some additional research and found information germane to the topic, information that had nothing to do with Tom Doak.

If you can find documentation indicating that Jones and MacKenzie had met prior to 1929 and discussed golf course architecture, including ANGC, please, by all means, present it.

Jones's first exposure to MacKenzie's work in the U.S. occured in 1929 at Pasatiempo and CPC, and that exposure is what led him to select Jones, not some phantom meeting in 1926 or 1927.

[Sven Nilsen]

There's a plethora of people who think that the "phantom" meeting wasn't so phantom, and the back pages of this site have touched on this topic more than once.

Debating any further on this topic is pointless for two reasons, namely (a) we disagree and (b) your act has become tired.

That's it for me on this thread, but if you'd like to add anything further, please do so.

Sven

[Jim Nugent]

Maxwell and MacKenzie worked together on Crystal Downs and a number of other courses as well.  Here is how Chris Clouser on the U.S. Amateur.org site describes the way they worked together...

"Maxwell joined with Alister MacKenzie, whom he had met during his visit to Scotland in 1919. With Maxwell working as MacKenzie’s Midwest Associate, the duo would become one of the more celebrated golf-course design teams in America, creating such successful joint ventures as Crystal Downs Country Club in Michigan, Melrose Country Club in Philadelphia and what is now the Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club. MacKenzie was involved in the design process to varying degrees of each course project. But Maxwell would remain behind and oversee the construction of each course.."

btw, the article also says Maxwell got interested in course design after he saw an article about NGLA.  The long arm of CBM...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I wonder if it was that working relationship that was the key to Maxwell being retained to alter ANGC, rather than his architectural skills ?

Maybe a combination of both.

But, Maxwell would seem to be "the" logical choice.

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