[Mike_Young]

Mr. King,

We prefer the people occupying our golf courses to be playing golf, not belly ball.
 

I think you bring up the main concern here.  Owners first and foremost want people playing their course as much as possible.  They could care less if they play belly ball or golf or whatever.  Remember a rule is a rule so when some guy rolls his ball in the fiarway and says he is playing "winter rules" he is no longer playing golf.  99% of the people playing do not play by the rules.  And they don't know the rules.  It's that simple.  Mr. King knows that.  The Mr. Kings, owners of clubs, country clubs etc have much more to lose than the USGA.  I trust them to figure it out.  

[Mike_Young]

I'd guess that the USGA isn't relevant at all to the 80% who don't keep handicaps or who don't think they are very good.  Conversely, it is probably relevant to the 20% who do and think they are.  What would 'golf" be if there wasn't some governance from somebody.  If the USGA becomes irrelevant, what happens then - anything goes?  If the USGA is irrelevant why don't TM and other manufacturers just make the longest straightest clubs and fastest straightest balls they are capable of and let the marketplace decide what they want to buy?  For the 80% who are not constrained by USGA membership, handicaps or competition, why would they not buy the latest greatest, conforming or not?  Many on here don't seem to mind the USGA regulating, they just seem to think that they are regulating the wrong things - roll back the ball but don't regulate anchored putters or grooves.

Bryan,
Have you ever seen a major league baseball player play softball or use an aluminum bat or even play whiffle ball?  Why can't golf be like that?  Tell me who it hurts.  The 20% you mention above that keep handicaps most likely have rules infractions during each posted round.  AND thats the next thing to come up...handicaps...the R&A method of having days when you must post handicap rounds is much more methodical and accurate than our method.  The train is going to keep moving whether the USGA gets on or not.

[Greg Tallman]

Mike,

To be clear are you stating that you represent a club that pays a state golf asscoiation $2000 before you pay the individual fees for those who keep handicaps at your club/course?

Greg,
I pay a fee of a couple of thousand to a state golf association and it includes up to 100 registered handicaps. All clubs pay the same.  But the private club can send out a bill of say $40 dollars to each and collect from maybe 400 members.  They would send the $25 fee out of the $40 to the association  YET the public course tries to find enough handicap seekers to cover his annual fee and has a very difficult time.  AND therefore some are deciding they don't need to join.  

Wow, ours is simply a minimum of of 10 registered golfers at $30 each and a one time $100 course fee and I woudl be surprised if handicap fees are an add on at many privte clubs these days... part of the dues package seems more likely.

[Garland Bayley]

Mr. King,

We prefer the people occupying our golf courses to be playing golf, not belly ball.
 

I think you bring up the main concern here.  Owners first and foremost want people playing their course as much as possible.  They could care less if they play belly ball or golf or whatever.  Remember a rule is a rule so when some guy rolls his ball in the fiarway and says he is playing "winter rules" he is no longer playing golf.  99% of the people playing do not play by the rules.  And they don't know the rules.  It's that simple.  Mr. King knows that.  The Mr. Kings, owners of clubs, country clubs etc have much more to lose than the USGA.  I trust them to figure it out.  

Certainly where I play your are way off base in your estimates. Most of the players I know play by the rules as they know them. Sure they don't study the rules, but the have a pretty good sense of them. They do play winter rules in the winter when designated by the course, but my sense of the rules is that is within the rules of golf.

Owners may want as many paying customers as possible. But, the most of the players that follow the rules hold in scorn the guys that illegally roll their ball, and to a certain degree hold in scorn those using a belly putter, even though that is not against the rules just yet.

By "our golf courses" I meant the golf courses we play. No ownership implied.
 

EDIT: It is my experience that those who would claim others have rules infractions in most every round, are those that commit those rules infractions themselves.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

To be clear are you stating that you represent a club that pays a state golf asscoiation $2000 before you pay the individual fees for those who keep handicaps at your club/course?

Greg,
I pay a fee of a couple of thousand to a state golf association and it includes up to 100 registered handicaps. All clubs pay the same.  But the private club can send out a bill of say $40 dollars to each and collect from maybe 400 members.  They would send the $25 fee out of the $40 to the association  YET the public course tries to find enough handicap seekers to cover his annual fee and has a very difficult time.  AND therefore some are deciding they don't need to join.  

Wow, ours is simply a minimum of of 10 registered golfers at $30 each and a one time $100 course fee and I woudl be surprised if handicap fees are an add on at many privte clubs these days... part of the dues package seems more likely.

Greg,
I think what has happened is many associations, golf and others, became larger with more overhead during the last 25 years of growth and now they hope to keep the same personnel etc and it just isn't going to happen.  They can't justify what they bring to the table.  they will tell you it gives you a course rating etc but WOW...how much are 5,  80 year old guys riding the course with a superiority complex and wanting a free lunch worth?

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

So, you're suggesting bifurcation (wooden bats vs aluminum bats) is the way to go?  Where would the bifurcation be - at the PGA Tour level?  Or all professional tours? Or somewhere else? If it was at the PGA Tour level, I guess they wouldn't need the USGA at all - they could set their own regulations.    (This might be good for the manufacturers and bad for the Tour players, because if the I&B rules were bi-furcated there would be no need for the manufacturers to get into the pro endorsement contracts since there would be no correlation between the pro equipment and that which the consumer uses  ). 

For the other (aluminum bat) side, are you suggesting a free for all, i.e. no I&B regulation at all.  Or regulation but at a more relaxed level (allowing longer and straighter and bigger and more forgiving and .....) so long as the game is made easier.  I guess there could be a role for for the USGA in regulation there, but I'm not sure how that would work?

For the 20%, no doubt there are rules infractions (as distinct from I&B) during many posted rounds outside of competition rounds.  Sure the R&A handicapping method is much better and more realistic, but it is a different ethic over there.  It's always a part of the good-natured banter around the BUDA Cup.  They have regular weekly competitions that are the basis for the handicap.  I'm not sure about American private clubs but I think that there is probably less in the way of formal competitions.  For players of public or semi-private courses there are probably not enough competitive rounds available to form a handicap.  If the American handicap system were to be made like the R&A model, it would make the handicapping system even more exclusionary in my opinion. 

What about bifurcation of the rules?  Would you think that the R&A should relax some of the rules; or reduce the rules; or ........... ?  Or, is there some other body that should be the rule setter?

Just curious what you think are the indications that the train is already moving.  In what ways is the USGA already irrelevant?

Re your latest post,

they will tell you it gives you a course rating etc but WOW...how much are 5,  80 year old guys riding the course with a superiority complex and wanting a free lunch worth? Grin

I take great offense.  I was well under 80, didn't have a superiority complex, and felt worthwhile when I used to do that, although the lunch was nice.   

[Mike_Young]

Mr. King,

We prefer the people occupying our golf courses to be playing golf, not belly ball.
 

I think you bring up the main concern here.  Owners first and foremost want people playing their course as much as possible.  They could care less if they play belly ball or golf or whatever.  Remember a rule is a rule so when some guy rolls his ball in the fiarway and says he is playing "winter rules" he is no longer playing golf.  99% of the people playing do not play by the rules.  And they don't know the rules.  It's that simple.  Mr. King knows that.  The Mr. Kings, owners of clubs, country clubs etc have much more to lose than the USGA.  I trust them to figure it out.  

Certainly where I play your are way off base in your estimates. Most of the players I know play by the rules as they know them. Sure they don't study the rules, but the have a pretty good sense of them. They do play winter rules in the winter when designated by the course, but my sense of the rules is that is within the rules of golf.

Owners may want as many paying customers as possible. But, the most of the players that follow the rules hold in scorn the guys that illegally roll their ball, and to a certain degree hold in scorn those using a belly putter, even though that is not against the rules just yet.

By "our golf courses" I meant the golf courses we play. No ownership implied.
 

EDIT: It is my experience that those who would claim others have rules infractions in most every round, are those that commit those rules infractions themselves.

GJ,
I would wager I am closer to base than you might think?  99.9 percent of us don't play by the rules.  Do you ever change from a pro V to a Pro V1X during a round or maybe try the T5 TMAG ball?  Or do you tap the six inch putt back or do we mark the spot when we lift , clean and place in winter.  As per your EDIT, I am the first to say I rarely play by the rules  AND for the guys that " think" they play by the rules holding others in "scorn"...that's the problem...the same guy hits it 250 and thinks he hit it 300 and doesn't realize the scratch golfer is closer to the 85 shooter than the tour player.  Cheers

[Garland Bayley]

GJ,
I would wager I am closer to base than you might think?  99.9 percent of us don't play by the rules.  Do you ever change from a pro V to a Pro V1X during a round or maybe try the T5 TMAG ball?  Or do you tap the six inch putt back or do we mark the spot when we lift , clean and place in winter.  As per your EDIT, I am the first to say I rarely play by the rules  AND for the guys that " think" they play by the rules holding others in "scorn"...that's the problem...the same guy hits it 250 and thinks he hit it 300 and doesn't realize the scratch golfer is closer to the 85 shooter than the tour player.  Cheers

Sounds to me like you don't know the rules.

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike,
I've never been comfortable with the baseball/golf analogy for equipment, for reasons that have been mentioned already.  There may (or may not) be good reasons to bifurcate golf equipment, and golf as we know it may survive bifurcation (or may not).  But the fact that baseball bats are bifurcated isn't instructive.

In the first place, the bat thing is ONLY about cost rather than preserving the traditional way the game is played.  While it is possible that golf courses would eventually be shorter and maintenance costs lower if equipment was limited, that isn't certain by any means and in any case wouldn't be comparable to anything in the baseball analogy.

More importantly (at least in my mind) is the unique connection between professional golf and the business of amateur golf.  On a golf telecast, you see ads for golf equipment.  On a MLB telecast, Rawlings doesn't advertise gloves, or Louisville Slugger bats, etc.  Few people watching an MLB game on TV have played baseball (or even softball!) in years, if ever.  My sense of golf is that the vast majority of viewers are active golfers, which in some ways makes the sport unique.

That connection between professional golf and amateur golf is significant in way that isn't true in any other sport I can think of.  Whether or not it is essential is hard to say because we don't know any other way.  But I'm hestitant to say that our game would be better off under another set of values and governance.  And I certainly don't want to take the word of a guy who runs an equipment company for what ought to happen.

[Mike_Young]

GJ,
I would wager I am closer to base than you might think?  99.9 percent of us don't play by the rules.  Do you ever change from a pro V to a Pro V1X during a round or maybe try the T5 TMAG ball?  Or do you tap the six inch putt back or do we mark the spot when we lift , clean and place in winter.  As per your EDIT, I am the first to say I rarely play by the rules  AND for the guys that " think" they play by the rules holding others in "scorn"...that's the problem...the same guy hits it 250 and thinks he hit it 300 and doesn't realize the scratch golfer is closer to the 85 shooter than the tour player.  Cheers

Sounds to me like you don't know the rules.

GJ,
YOU ARE CORRECT...
I meant to say "Do you ever change from a pro V to a Pro V1X during a round  (HOLE) or maybe try the T5 TMAG ball?

[JMEvensky]

More importantly (at least in my mind) is the unique connection between professional golf and the business of amateur golf.  On a golf telecast, you see ads for golf equipment.  On a MLB telecast, Rawlings doesn't advertise gloves, or Louisville Slugger bats, etc.  Few people watching an MLB game on TV have played baseball (or even softball!) in years, if ever.  My sense of golf is that the vast majority of viewers are active golfers, which in some ways makes the sport unique.

I think this is a big part of it--guys DID play baseball but still DO play golf.

We want baseball to stay "pure" because we remember(vaguely) what it was like to hit a ball with a wooden bat from a fastball pitcher 60'6" away standing on a 15" mound.We can't play anymore but we want the guys playing baseball today to play with the same equipment that we used.

If 50 year olds played baseball we'd probably see titanium bats and gloves the size of jai alai cestas--and Rawlings and H&B advertising them during MLB telecasts.

[JESII]

Mike,

I read the article you sent and see there are alot of metrics designed to give an overview of the golf industry from an operators perspective...that's a good thing. But this was his conclusion:


"In summary, 2012 was a much-welcomed respite from the constant pounding the industry has taken on the revenue and rounds front over the past 5 years.  That said, we’ve quantified that all of that upside (mind you we’re talking about at the national level and for the “average facility,” your actual mileage may have varied but you’d probably need Pellucid’s weather impact information to quantify it) came from near-record weather.  We had a solid year on the equipment side as well and they’re closing in on a return to the 2007 level of dollar sales which would be a nice recovery if achieved in 2013.  We also looked in the presentation at the ’13 weather forecast to determine how much of this year’s favorability we would potentially “give back” and outlined that our current forecast is that we will give most if not all of it back so planning using multi-year averages vs. the year-ago values is a must for the upcoming season for most every geography.  We’re grateful for the dividend in 2012 but 2013’s challenge will be seeing how much of this year’s windfall we can keep in the bank by being smarter, consumer-focused and executionally better than any of our local market competitors.  We’ve already begun work with our SEM clients to outline and roadmap how to do that, hopefully all of our subscribers are similarly minded and up to the challenge.  Forewarned is forearmed."


Weather gave you a good year and our crystal ball tells us weather is going to take it all back next year so you buy our consulting services!

WTF kind of analysis is that?

You're in a tough business that has become oversaturated with options. No doubt. All of us are at times envious and always respectful of your effort and dedication and love of the game...but back to the topic at hand...

How has the USGA cost you a single customer?

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

I read the article you sent and see there are alot of metrics designed to give an overview of the golf industry from an operators perspective...that's a good thing. But this was his conclusion:


"In summary, 2012 was a much-welcomed respite from the constant pounding the industry has taken on the revenue and rounds front over the past 5 years.  That said, we’ve quantified that all of that upside (mind you we’re talking about at the national level and for the “average facility,” your actual mileage may have varied but you’d probably need Pellucid’s weather impact information to quantify it) came from near-record weather.  We had a solid year on the equipment side as well and they’re closing in on a return to the 2007 level of dollar sales which would be a nice recovery if achieved in 2013.  We also looked in the presentation at the ’13 weather forecast to determine how much of this year’s favorability we would potentially “give back” and outlined that our current forecast is that we will give most if not all of it back so planning using multi-year averages vs. the year-ago values is a must for the upcoming season for most every geography.  We’re grateful for the dividend in 2012 but 2013’s challenge will be seeing how much of this year’s windfall we can keep in the bank by being smarter, consumer-focused and executionally better than any of our local market competitors.  We’ve already begun work with our SEM clients to outline and roadmap how to do that, hopefully all of our subscribers are similarly minded and up to the challenge.  Forewarned is forearmed."


Weather gave you a good year and our crystal ball tells us weather is going to take it all back next year so you buy our consulting services!

WTF kind of analysis is that?

You're in a tough business that has become oversaturated with options. No doubt. All of us are at times envious and always respectful of your effort and dedication and love of the game...but back to the topic at hand...

How has the USGA cost you a single customer?

IMHO they cost us all via perception of the sport.  We can disagree on USGA but I think there will be major changes and soon. 

[JESII]

I think the USGA is an easy target...and it's undeserved.

I hate to pick at this but for a guy as smart as you to say they hurt the game because of how they're percieved simply baffles me.

Can you name one non-golfer (that in theory is a potential golfer) that knows what the USGA is?

Can you name one ex-golfer that quit because of the USGA?


It's funny...Mark King seems like the kind of guy many on here would despise...until he attacks someone we  despise more.

I wonder if can get a prop bet for longetivity...Mark King or Mike Davis!!!

[Mike_Young]

I think the USGA is an easy target...and it's undeserved.

I hate to pick at this but for a guy as smart as you to say they hurt the game because of how they're percieved simply baffles me.

Can you name one non-golfer (that in theory is a potential golfer) that knows what the USGA is?

Can you name one ex-golfer that quit because of the USGA?


It's funny...Mark King seems like the kind of guy many on here would despise...until he attacks someone we  despise more.

I wonder if can get a prop bet for longetivity...Mark King or Mike Davis!!!

Jim,
I'm not a big fan of industry associations.  They are usually either frat houses or leeches of an industry.  BUT I like Mike Davis.  And I like Mark King he gets it.  As for the longevity it would be like comparing the playable years of a running back to a center. 

[JESII]

Hey...have you seen the list of prop bets for Sunday?


I wonder if either of them get it...I really do.

The game should be viewed as low maintenance - easy access and I can't think of anything either of them have done in that direction...can you?

[Carl Johnson]

Expert professional golfer Robert Garrigus chimes in (from Golf Channel):

"They [USGA] are amateurs who are making rules for a professional game," Garrigus said of the USGA, which announced the proposed ban in conjunction with the Royal & Ancient last fall.

Garrigus, who has at points anchored a long putter to his body during a career that includes one PGA Tour victory, was quick to defend those currently employing anchored strokes on Tour.

"It's unfortunate that they are trying to ban it, because the guys that are using the putter are good dudes," he noted. "They're not cheating. It's within the rules right now. And it's never an advantage."

No, Robert, it's the pros who have control over the rules for their game.  Don't blame the USGA - make your own rules and get on with it.  And while you're at it, adopt some rules for the caddie races.  And, by the way, if there was no amateur game, there would be no professional game either.  Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Robert.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Well Robert let's all start playing with 20 or more clubs like the old days. Maybe we should reinstste the stymie too??

How can anyone take the TaylorMade pres seriously when he has his pros wearing war paint in his tv ads??? Has to be one of the dumbest commericals ever made, I really wonder why the Native Americans are not upset. Maybe they know something we don't, he's a jackass??

[Bruce Katona]

The USGA has little equity or skin in the game and can take the academic approach of "do as I say for the good of the game, not as I do ( let equipment & ball technology overtake the game.  Typical.  Not a big USGA fan (blue blazer guys etc), but each professional sport needs a governing body.

Would you like to solve the technology issue?  Pretty simple really. This would actually have the USGA have some brass ones for once. Get all the major players in a room, with no attorneys present and say" Lads - the ball is flying too far - you now it, we know it even Al Gore knows it as the carbon footprint is expanding - lets fix this.  Ball manufacturers - you all need to agree over the next 5 years to take the ball back 10%. Spin the reduction in distance on "greater precision - heeck you guys know how to market figutre it out.  If you don't agree to reduce the ball 10%, the USGA will find something wrong with your ball, sue, make your ball illegal and tie you up in court while the lawsuit works its way through the system. You're dead meat."

Equipment guys - with size or accuaracy not both - If you want those 460cc drivers take out the spring.  If you want sonmething smaller that's fine with us.  Grooves are really a non - issue as while the ball guys are taking it back, they'll make it spin less and we're fixing two problems at once.  PS If you don't agree, again you'll be illegal & we'll be in court."

You all have an hour to decide.  Let us know.  At this point I'd join the USGA.  But what do I know.

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