[Niall C]

Martin

I noted that when Rory was wheeled out recently to say his piece about his new equipment, the big selling point was him saying how much further he hit the ball with his new clubs. Perhaps not surprising but looks like thats what the manufacturers are selling. As far as I'm concerned the sooner they bring in a new model the sooner the "old" model gets discounted and even becomes available second hand. Don't want to sound mean but over £200 for a driver, no chance !?!?!

Niall

[Niall C]

Ben

If the USGA and the R&A do have the ability to stop this guy by bringing in new standards then no way is Taylor Made bigger than the ruling authorities. The way I read his comments is he's trying to scare them off from pulling the rug from under his feet, by way of threatening to set up an alternative tour/game Kerry Packer style. The broomhandle rule has got him rattled I reckon. If they can do that with a putter then what else might they do. As I said in an earlier post, he's trying to protect his market share.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jslonis,

The problem with bifurcation is that the amateur will always want to play with the equipment the PGA Tour guys play, hence a roll-back for Non-PGA Tour players would result in tremendous pressure to yield in that area.  

I understand his corporate responsibilities come first, but he's no steward of the game

[jeffwarne]

I never take the words of a man at the forefront of golf lightly.  Make no mistake, the CEO of Taylormade is one of those fellows.  Love or hate Taylormade's aggressive style, they make a big dent in golf.  I've met Mark King once, and he struck me as thoughtful and well spoken.  He did not strike me as a man that would say anything without understanding how it would be perceived at all angles.  I think he knows exactly what he is doing by saying such things in an interview.   I think he is sending a clear message to the USGA and the R&A.  The message is this,

 "At this juncture in golf, I am bigger than you.  I see things happening in golf that may or may not be hurting the game.  It doesn't matter because whatever I say goes. I can sell 5-layer balls.  I can make a golf club white and the entire industry will follow.  I can lengthen and deloft a 7-iron, making it a 6-iron, and convince everyone that they just hit their 7-iron 15 yards further.  I am doing anything I want with equipment because I can.  Because you're not stopping me. Maybe you should".

agreed
because he called the USGA worse than pussies, he predicted their irrelevance in less than 10 years..
I'd say those aren't fighting words, but a call/challenge for actual action by the well funded USGA.

[JSlonis]

Jslonis,

The problem with bifurcation is that the amateur will always want to play with the equipment the PGA Tour guys play, hence a roll-back for Non-PGA Tour players would result in tremendous pressure to yield in that area.  

I understand his corporate responsibilities come first, but he's no steward of the game

Yes, the amateurs have wanted to play the same equipment as the pros, but would they still want to play the same stuff if that meant a shorter ball, shorter, smaller driver, no anchoring, etc?

I'm not so sure anymore.

[Ben Sims]

Ben

If the USGA and the R&A do have the ability to stop this guy by bringing in new standards then no way is Taylor Made bigger than the ruling authorities. The way I read his comments is he's trying to scare them off from pulling the rug from under his feet, by way of threatening to set up an alternative tour/game Kerry Packer style. The broomhandle rule has got him rattled I reckon. If they can do that with a putter then what else might they do. As I said in an earlier post, he's trying to protect his market share.

Niall

I disagree.  I think he thinks his market share is safe whether rules change or not. Maybe he's pushing them to action knowing Taylormade's stature is safe under any rules package.

[Garland Bayley]

TaylorMade is already bifurcating their equipment by reducing the loft on their irons more than a full club. (5 deg)  I have had many friends buy these things and brag about the amazing length.  They even call them blades.  You will need to click on the specification tab.

http://taylormadegolf.com/TaylorMade/RocketBladez-Irons/DW-JN933,en_US,pd.html?start=1&cgid=taylormade-irons-allCurrentModels

The more traditionally lofted Scratch irons.

http://scratchgolf.com/specs.html

So they do that and then they go and reduce the loft back on their tour model.  Still not all the way back because they want you to buy a gap wedge.

http://taylormadegolf.com/TaylorMade/RocketBladez-Tour-Irons/DW-JN938,en_US,pd.html?start=2&cgid=taylormade-irons-allCurrentModels

The Scratch irons are not traditionally lofted. Their lofts with PW at 48 are a modern loft that requires you add a gap wedge to fill the gap between PW and SW. The TaylorMade RocketBladeZ are stronger lofts, but not quite as strong as some I have seen. There are sets out there with the PW at 44, and they are selling G1 and G2 wedges at 48 and 52.

The traditional PW was 52 before vanishing loft disease set in with the manufacturers marketing folks.

[Jason Thurman]

Yes, the amateurs have wanted to play the same equipment as the pros, but would they still want to play the same stuff if that meant a shorter ball, shorter, smaller driver, no anchoring, etc?

Yes.

The ones who don't will be ridiculed enough by their peers that they eventually suck it up and play with real equipment too.

Remember, most golfers like their scorecard and pencil and like to talk about what they shot and how far they hit it. There will be no way to shake the feeling of illegitimacy of every birdie made with "amateur" clubs and balls.

Bifurcation just won't work, because no one will play with the "amateur" equipment. However, plenty of people won't like playing with the "pro" equipment either. Their only alternative will be to leave the game (and LOTS of people will).

[Garland Bayley]

How about the USGA's implementation of the Groove Rule? Would anyone care to argue that the rule was and is a total non factor to all levels of play?
...

I believe that was an exercise in changing a rule after patent expiration. I anticipate they may do the same thing with the ball after patent expiration.

With the grooves, they should have realized that it would make no difference in how people play, because Sam Snead was playing bomb and gauge long before anyone thought of regulating the grooves. If they indeed realized that, then it had to be an exercise in establishing a precedent to reverse the effect of patented technology after the patent expires.

[Tim Bert]

Yes, the amateurs have wanted to play the same equipment as the pros, but would they still want to play the same stuff if that meant a shorter ball, shorter, smaller driver, no anchoring, etc?

Yes.

The ones who don't will be ridiculed enough by their peers that they eventually suck it up and play with real equipment too.

Remember, most golfers like their scorecard and pencil and like to talk about what they shot and how far they hit it. There will be no way to shake the feeling of illegitimacy of every birdie made with "amateur" clubs and balls.

Bifurcation just won't work, because no one will play with the "amateur" equipment. However, plenty of people won't like playing with the "pro" equipment either. Their only alternative will be to leave the game (and LOTS of people will).

I don't really agree with this position.  Yes, most pencil and scorecard guys like to talk about what they shot.  I would argue that MOST of those same guys don't understand and practice all rules of golf as the gospel.  To varying degrees they may do their best to adhere to the rules, but the vast majority of golfers not playing in a tournament don't play by the rules.  I'm certainly guilty of rounds with my friends where I take my best shot at an interpretation of a rule or going by memory and I know I'm not always right.

If they already aren't playing by the same rules as the pros and elite amateurs why do they need to use the same equipment?  

I'm not for clubs with rocket boosters or laser sight lines, but count me in as someone that doesn't think the sky is falling with respect to equipment for amateurs.  My handicap is the same or worse as it was fifteen years ago and I hit the ball no further.  The classic aren't becoming obsolete for me.  Would I mind playing with an RBZ driver if it was illegal on tour?  Not as long as there was still some governing board telling me it was ok to play it in my amateur rounds.

I've never felt embarrassed by playing football with friends with a field that was shorter than 100 yards or with a football that was smaller than the ball they use in the NFL.

I think amateur equipment should continue to be governed and regulated, but certainly to a different degree than the tournament equipment.

[Tim Martin]

Yes, the amateurs have wanted to play the same equipment as the pros, but would they still want to play the same stuff if that meant a shorter ball, shorter, smaller driver, no anchoring, etc?

Yes.

The ones who don't will be ridiculed enough by their peers that they eventually suck it up and play with real equipment too.

Remember, most golfers like their scorecard and pencil and like to talk about what they shot and how far they hit it. There will be no way to shake the feeling of illegitimacy of every birdie made with "amateur" clubs and balls.

Bifurcation just won't work, because no one will play with the "amateur" equipment. However, plenty of people won't like playing with the "pro" equipment either. Their only alternative will be to leave the game (and LOTS of people will).

I don't see very many people leaving the game at all. People will choose/adapt and the sun will come up tomorrow.

[William_G]

no doubt is an important guy in the golf industry, but anyone would be in his position

I'm not a fan, as I saw him on Undercover Boss, as a detached corporate boss who didn't know the people who worked in his company or what they did

golf has been around longer than Taylormade, nuf said

[JSlonis]

Yes, the amateurs have wanted to play the same equipment as the pros, but would they still want to play the same stuff if that meant a shorter ball, shorter, smaller driver, no anchoring, etc?

Yes.

The ones who don't will be ridiculed enough by their peers that they eventually suck it up and play with real equipment too.

Remember, most golfers like their scorecard and pencil and like to talk about what they shot and how far they hit it. There will be no way to shake the feeling of illegitimacy of every birdie made with "amateur" clubs and balls.

Bifurcation just won't work, because no one will play with the "amateur" equipment. However, plenty of people won't like playing with the "pro" equipment either. Their only alternative will be to leave the game (and LOTS of people will).

I don't think so really.  I'm not talking about letting "amateur" equipment get out of control, just keeping the current COR restrictions in place and keeping the ball where it is now.  If there was a rollback of equipment at the professional level, I don't think you'd see many of your average club golfers flocking to play the "tour" approved version.  I don't know of many who rushed out to get the conforming wedges just because it's what the Pro's now play.  Personally, I switched to the new conforming groove wedge right away, but I wanted less spin in my wedges. I doubt your average player wants that.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

I think it's all about the golf ball.  The aerdynamics of the modern ball allow for a consistently higher, straighter flight.  This allows for irons to be delofted for added lenght.  The extra distance is not scary as the ball goes straighter.  Let the ball hook and slice of line like it did 15 years ago and distance will only be an advantage of the one who can control it again.  Don't discorage power, make it harder to control.  Let ball not climb as high and the loft comes back to normal in the irons.  I think the tournament ball is the answer as eveyone will want to play what the Pro's play. Let accuracy be the master of power again.

[Matthew Essig]

I think it's all about the golf ball.  The aerdynamics of the modern ball allow for a consistently higher, straighter flight.  This allows for irons to be delofted for added lenght.  The extra distance is not scary as the ball goes straighter.  Let the ball hook and slice of line like it did 15 years ago and distance will only be an advantage of the one who can control it again.  Don't discorage power, make it harder to control.  Let ball not climb as high and the loft comes back to normal in the irons.  I think the tournament ball is the answer as eveyone will want to play what the Pro's play. Let accuracy be the master of power again.

+1

To those who say bifurcation is the way to go, have fun watching the sport implode. Don't believe me? Go see how well other bifurcated sports are doing, like endurance racing.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Blame the damn R and A.

I think MHM would have loved this thread. Somewhere his head just exploded.

I have rocketballz three wood that now rests next to the snowblower. Plus the pro at our  club is a TM guy. He came in DFL in San Diego with their  new distance clubs. Maybe sometimes it is the poor tools.

[William_G]

I do love my TaylorMade driver, 3 wood and 5 wood, LOL....but I love golf more than a company

thank you

[William_G]

no doubt that you can only sell so many clubs, balls and shoes...

I'm sure all golf companies are feeling it, but it is inappropriate to then try to take down the game itself and the USGA

[David Bartman]

I have read all the opinions of the various posters and while I think King is over stating his reaction to the USGA.  Mark my words, their is a battle going on at this very moment between the PGA Tour, PGA of America and the USGA.  The PGA Tour is very unsure about banning anchoring, they are a business and their brand is build on Americans, two of which are Keegan Bradley and Webb Simpson.   The players board knows this and they are the ones that make the rules for the PGA Tour, not the USGA.  The sticky part of this tension is that the PGA Tour doesn't want to be the rules body for golf.  They don't want to have a tenuous relationship with the USGA, but they are not going to hurt their brand , by just accepting this latest rules change.   

The PGA of America has a different gripe with the USGA.  They are the golf professionals all around the country that are going to have to be driving around their member guest tournaments, club matches, invitationals, 2 balls , 4 balls, scrambles etc determining if a player broke the anchoring rule.  Was his elbow touching his body?  Was the club anchored or just brushing against his shirt?  etc.   The USGA has proposed a nightmare for club professionals! 

Lastly, if there is a power struggle, the PGA Tour will win this battle.  Some of you indicated that golfers want the same equipment and idolize the PGA Tour players, that is true and will always be true.  If the PGA Tour doesn't adopt the anchoring rule than the rule will not be adopted by golf.  I will repeat the PGA Tour and PGA of America are the true movers in the golf industry and they allow the USGA to seem important by letting them handle all the parts of golf that don't generate revenue for the PGA Tour. 

[A.G._Crockett]

A couple of thoughts from an old guy:

1. The USGA has been around a LOT longer than Taylormade.  They haven't remained relevant all this time by being stupid, and they aren't stupid now, despite what many on this board seem to think.

2. King runs a company that has evolved into little more than constant new product lines with over-the-top endorsement stuff from the PGA Tour; the RBZ woods are already on closeout.  I would make it better than even money that TM is going to have to change more than the USGA over the next 10 years to remain a major entity in the golf industry, and King would do well to remember that at one time Wilson and MacGregor were completely dominant in the club industry.  Things change fast, and history says the USGA fares better than equipment companies when change comes.

3. If King believes that the core constituency of the golf industry wants bifurcated equipment and rules from what they see in tournament play, whether it is the ball, the number of clubs, the size of the hole, or whatever, I believe him to be deeply and sadly mistaken.  There isn't a shred of evidence for that position, and a fair amount to the contrary; the non-conforming Callaway driver a few years back and the aforementioned Polara ball, just to mention two.

[Jerry Kluger]

I absolutely believe that bifurcation is the answer. Players who are not at the very top level of the game will no doubt try the equipment being used by those at that level and quickly realize that they would not enjoy the game as much if they used that equipment; end of story.  We accept different tee boxes for different player abilities.  There is no need to spend the money to build and maintain courses that challenge the top players because of the advances in the ball and clubs. 

[JESII]

David Bartman,

I'll be curious to see this play out but my instinct is that the PGA Tour is down the list a little with respect to being a real mover in the golf business. They are an entertainment wing of the game, that's all.

Keegan and Webb? Great players and seemingly great guys but there's so little attraction (real money changing hands) beyond the top 3 or 5 that Finchem will not die on the sword for those boys I guarantee it.

Tell me something...let's assume the USGA goes through with this anchoring ban or a roll back of 10% on the golf ball or any other measure Mark King is puffing his chest about. Don't you think they'll be in lock step with the R&A? What do you think Augusta will do? They'll side with the USGA...so 3 of the 4 majors ban whatever...the PGA of America will follow suit, right?

The PGA Tour carries no weight in those events...what do you think Keegan will do? How about Tim Finchem? They'll get fitted for one of those super fat putter grips...

There may be a power struggle going on but Mark King isn't a factor and Tim Finchem holds basically 0 cards...

[David Kelly]

I'll be curious to see this play out but my instinct is that the PGA Tour is down the list a little with respect to being a real mover in the golf business.
They are an entertainment wing of the game, that's all....There may be a power struggle going on but Mark King isn't a factor and Tim Finchem holds basically 0 cards...

Agree.  The fact that the PGA would feel the need to look out for their "brand" seems to indicate that their position is not that strong.

[Tim Martin]

I have read all the opinions of the various posters and while I think King is over stating his reaction to the USGA.  Mark my words, their is a battle going on at this very moment between the PGA Tour, PGA of America and the USGA.  The PGA Tour is very unsure about banning anchoring, they are a business and their brand is build on Americans, two of which are Keegan Bradley and Webb Simpson.   The players board knows this and they are the ones that make the rules for the PGA Tour, not the USGA.  The sticky part of this tension is that the PGA Tour doesn't want to be the rules body for golf.  They don't want to have a tenuous relationship with the USGA, but they are not going to hurt their brand , by just accepting this latest rules change.  

The PGA of America has a different gripe with the USGA.  They are the golf professionals all around the country that are going to have to be driving around their member guest tournaments, club matches, invitationals, 2 balls , 4 balls, scrambles etc determining if a player broke the anchoring rule.  Was his elbow touching his body?  Was the club anchored or just brushing against his shirt?  etc.   The USGA has proposed a nightmare for club professionals!  

Lastly, if there is a power struggle, the PGA Tour will win this battle.  Some of you indicated that golfers want the same equipment and idolize the PGA Tour players, that is true and will always be true.  If the PGA Tour doesn't adopt the anchoring rule than the rule will not be adopted by golf.  I will repeat the PGA Tour and PGA of America are the true movers in the golf industry and they allow the USGA to seem important by letting them handle all the parts of golf that don't generate revenue for the PGA Tour.  

I don't think you will see the PGA Tour/PGA of America usurp the USGA's rule making role. The idea that the USGA will be a non entity in ten years is baseless rhetoric and I think will ultimately come back and bite King in the ass. The PGA Tour is a brand whereas the USGA/R&A is the heart and soul of the game. As far as perceived anchoring infractions causing a nightmare for club pros I don't buy it as I would think the majority of players will scrap the long putters all together if they can't anchor.

[JESII]

Jamie Slonis,

Happy New Year!

What do you think the benefit of bifurcation is? Who wins?

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