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John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
http://scoregolf.com/blog/rick-young/2013/january/taking-a-stand

"SG: So what needs to happen?

King: "If I were running the PGA of America I would write my own set of rules. I'd do it with the PGA Tour. Right so then what would happen with the U.S. Open and those 11 tournaments? They would follow suit because they would have no choice. Because if they don't have any players they don't have any tournament and if they don't have any tournament they don't have any money."

and

SG: You sound scared for the future of the game. Are you?

King: “No not yet. But the conversations are intensifying. If we don't do something different and new and creative then the game is in trouble. If we weren't having these conversations right now then I would say yes, it’s in trouble. Here's a prediction: the USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity, they will be a non-factor in golf because they are choosing to be on the outside and no one is signing up for what they represent. The industry is going to move away from them and pass them. They're obsolete. I hate to say that but that's their behaviour.”

and

 "If they roll the ball back we're not going to roll our ball back. We will for a tournament ball but we’re still going to sell you a ball you can play. Like I said, two sets of rules are coming."

So...

It looks like the this manufacturer wants either 1)  No rules on equipment or 2) Bifurcation.  I get it:  his job is to sell new equipment every year.  But I don't see how that is sustainable. 
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 10:51:07 AM »
Incredulous, but what can you expect from a CEO who is willing to further cheapen his 'stable' of Tour players with ads like this.  :P



I think his surname has gone to his head.  ::)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2013, 11:29:29 AM »

Count me down as someone that is hoping the USGA gets control of technology and wins this fight... even for the amateur golfers. 

In general, I am supportive of the improvements to equipment to date.  They have helped the average golfer, while still maintaining some requirement of physical ability in the long game.   However, I think they have certainly gone far enough and am worried that continued improvements in equipment could damage the game much more than the concern that the game is too difficult for some golfers.   

There has to be some point where the governing bodies allow for differentiation between golfers based on physical ability.  Faster swing speeds should result in signficantly farther drives and iron shots.  Once equipment is improved so that the results become the substantially the same, regardless of swings and swing speeds, part of the fun of golf (ie. working on your game to become better) is lost.  If I play with a good younger golfer, I should be 20 yards behind him.  If a golfer cuts the ball, it should slice.  Equipment should not take away this differentiation.

I don't play hickories, but maybe I should start to. 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 11:44:56 AM »
Sounds to me as if though the CEO of Taylormade is challenging the USGA to do something about equipment.

The game's not in trouble.
 overbuilt courses, shitty courses, or courses with unsustainable business models, or unsutainable maintenance/clubhouse budgets are.
IF 3000 of them close tomorrow, the people suffering wil be the employees and owners, not the game, and I'd venture a guess that the same amount of people would be playing golf.

Equipment advances were virtually static when the game started its growth surge in the mid-late 80's (50's vintage persimmon was still the rage)
Affluence, Tiger Woods and other factors drove this growth......not hot equipment.

Modern equipment and hot balls have done more to ruin courses, butcher routings, and bastardize course setups than anything in the history of golf

It's his perogative to choose not to roll back balls if mandated.
It's the consumers choice to decide whether or not to purchase illegal balls.
Most people don't play golf anyway, playing winter rules, 6 foot gimmes, lateral lost ball drops, etc.
I simply can choose not to play with them.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 12:09:53 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2013, 11:47:44 AM »
Greed is good.





Well, not really.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2013, 11:55:11 AM »
No Problem. I'll just add TaylorMade to my boycott list. That makes it a list of two.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2013, 11:55:45 AM »
How about the USGA's implementation of the Groove Rule? Would anyone care to argue that the rule was and is a total non factor to all levels of play?

They have a tough job, but the ruling bodies don't always get things right. There is blame to go around on all sides when it comes to the issue of growing the game. The new anchoring rule is just another example.

I agree with Mr King in regard to bifurcation. It's time!

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2013, 12:03:38 PM »
How about the USGA's implementation of the Groove Rule? Would anyone care to argue that the rule was and is a total non factor to all levels of play?

They have a tough job, but the ruling bodies don't always get things right. There is blame to go around on all sides when it comes to the issue of growing the game. The new anchoring rule is just another example.

I agree with Mr King in regard to bifurcation. It's time!

1. Please think it through and tell me how bifurcation works. Start with junior golf, competitive junior golf, high school golf, collegiate golf, amateur golf, professional golf and finally how about club events?

2. Mr. King's words were spoke from a business guy not a golf guy and it showed. His only concern for the game of golf is his ability to sell equipment in mass amounts.

Bifurcation SOUNDS like a concept but putting into practice opens up quite the pandora's box.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2013, 12:05:34 PM »
The real story would have been if Mark King called for a future for golf that would have been detrimental to equipment manufacturers. 

BTW, who are mouthbreathers who were asking King for his autograph?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 12:06:46 PM »
The USGA and R&A aren't perfect.  In fact they are far from it.  However, the game needs a clearly identifiable ruling body and it would be unmitigatedly bad for the game for it to be, effectively, ruled by manufacturers.

I have played TaylorMade woods for 20 years and more recently have also played the Penta ball.  Having read the longer version of Mr King's interview on Scoregolf I will not buy any further TM products until such time as a) Mr King is no longer involved in any way with the business and b) the company has made absolutely clear that it accepts the exclusive authority of the USGA and R&A in governing the rules of golf.  I had tried to communicate this to TM but, sadly, the only feedback possible through their website is a form limited to 300 characters
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 12:11:10 PM »
He should be BEGGING the USGA to roll back the ball if they do anything....it's not like TM sells any in the first place.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2013, 12:11:54 PM »
What would you bifurcate?  Just equipment?  Or other rules of how to play the game - OOB drop where you want with one stroke, mulligans, gimees, larger holes, rolling the ball ........... ?  Arguably the majority of "golfers" don't play be the rules now.  

Sounds like Mr King is only interested in growing the game to sell more equipment.  Reminds me not to buy anymore TM equipment.    

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2013, 12:23:14 PM »
The blog is worth reading... ::) ::)

If 15 inch cups and 20 clubs are cool, why not 45 inch cups and 50 clubs?
Or just cut a 50 yard crater in the fairway with a flag at the bottom.

And if the ball is rolled back and they don't, therefore selling illegal balls "you can play", why not produce balls that go 50% farther than now?

Why not play defense and tackle other players?

I have been critical of the USGA, and the way manufacturers have been able to out innovate the rules due to a fear of litigation.
But to have no standards except for tournament players is lunacy.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 12:36:38 PM »
TaylorMade is already bifurcating their equipment by reducing the loft on their irons more than a full club. (5 deg)  I have had many friends buy these things and brag about the amazing length.  They even call them blades.  You will need to click on the specification tab.

http://taylormadegolf.com/TaylorMade/RocketBladez-Irons/DW-JN933,en_US,pd.html?start=1&cgid=taylormade-irons-allCurrentModels

The more traditionally lofted Scratch irons.

http://scratchgolf.com/specs.html

So they do that and then they go and reduce the loft back on their tour model.  Still not all the way back because they want you to buy a gap wedge.

http://taylormadegolf.com/TaylorMade/RocketBladez-Tour-Irons/DW-JN938,en_US,pd.html?start=2&cgid=taylormade-irons-allCurrentModels

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2013, 12:36:49 PM »
Do golfers really want to play with 15 inch cups, 20 clubs, and a ball that's illegal on Tour? I know tons of 20+ handicappers who play ProV1s, but I never see any of them playing a Polara.

Even if the rules bifurcate, I'm betting almost everyone continues to play conforming equipment. Plenty of others will just quit before they start using non-conforming clubs and balls.

It's the same reason the basketball court with the 8 ft goals down the street is always empty, even though fewer people can dunk on the 10 ft goals nextdoor. For most of us, it's just not cool to win Super Bowls in Madden with the difficulty level set to "rookie," nor will it be cool to hit 300 yard drives with a SuperBall and make 60 foot putts into a 15" diameter cup (which is the stupidest idea of all).
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 12:42:58 PM »
King is a quality guy and a great businessman, but I think he's off-base here, because the USGA has been nothing if not a valuable partner to the growth of his business in the past dozen years or so.  Why, you might ask?  Because in the past dozen years or so, the evidence about the impact of ball and club technology on existing golf course design has been very well documented.  In response, the USGA has done virtually nothing in the way of rulemaking.  The drivers get bigger, with better clubface technology while the balls go longer, with less harmful spin.  Hybrid clubs have made a mockery of what used to be difficult long iron shots for professionals.  One could go on and on, but it is undeniable that the effects of technology have caused golf course owners, operators and architects to try to "compete" by making courses longer and more difficult.  This effect is more pronounced if the course in question is interested in hosting professional competitions.  Along the way, during this period of deafening silence, the TaylorMades of the world have profited greatly by selling the clubs that allow the pros to reduce courses like Firestone to driver, nine-iron instead of driver, three-iron.  The technological improvements have had a beneficial effect on the retail golfer while having an inimical effect on the professional game.  But there's no doubting that club and ball makers have done quite well during the deafening silence.

Now, all of a sudden, the manufacturers want to rail against the USGA because it implemented a rule against five foot putters and anchoring, fearing, I suppose, that this is the first step of the association going for bigger and more meaningful reforms, maybe even to bifurcation.  These verbal bromides are usually the sort of hoary, pre-litigation exhortations that don't amount to much of anything, especially if the USGA winds up doing nothing to the ball, to club specs or nothing in the way of bifurcation.  In the meantime, King and his comrades would do well to shut up and silently thank their enabling partner, the USGA, which has allowed them to reap great profits.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 12:45:47 PM »
and make 60 foot putts into a 15" diameter cup (which is the stupidest idea of all).

+1

and Terry, very good point about the enabling.
The enabled should enjpy the deafing silence.......


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 12:46:24 PM »
Bifurcation - I can't wait until the explosive' power of the TaylorMade Tony Soprano RocketBallz 12 gauge driver makes its debut:



....or the TM Schmidt Special Cheater Line putter:



"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 01:18:08 PM »
How about the USGA's implementation of the Groove Rule? Would anyone care to argue that the rule was and is a total non factor to all levels of play?

They have a tough job, but the ruling bodies don't always get things right. There is blame to go around on all sides when it comes to the issue of growing the game. The new anchoring rule is just another example.

I agree with Mr King in regard to bifurcation. It's time!

Both the USGA and the R&A are interesting in taking the game to places its not played and increasing the numbers palying the game both there and in established areas. I guess you could call that growing the game although to be honest if that didn't happen the game would be perfectly fine IMHO.


I would differentiate that however with Taylor Made and their desire to grow there business. I suppose they can do that in basically two ways, firstly increasing their share of the golf produce market or alternatively keeping their share in a growing market. You could argue that a change in the rules/rollback would actually increase the market with new rules meaning a lot more new equipment being sold that conforms to the rules. The big danger for the likes of Taylor Made, Nike and Titliest is that in the mix up they might lose market share which is perhaps why you don't hear so much of the smaller companies bitching about it as they probably see very well the opportunity.

Niall

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2013, 01:22:55 PM »
You guys see the word bifurcation and jump to all sorts of extremes.

It's an equipment issue for golf, the normal rules of golf don't need to be changed. There is already bifurcation in place with the Groove Rule. It was put in place at the Professional Tour level 3 yrs ago. If you want to play in those events, your clubs have to be confirming. What's the big deal? The high level amateur groove condition doesn't go into effect until 2014 & supposedly it'll go into effect for all other players in 2024. How is that not bifurcation?

Different guidelines work just fine in other major sports. I don't see where the implementation of further equipment regulation is that complicated at the Tour level. It's simple, you want to play in a Tour Event?...You have to play with tour approved equipment. The Euro Tour, Web.com Tour, etc can follow suit. At the "professional" level, here is what you are allowed to play with...how is that difficult to understand?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2013, 01:29:31 PM »
You guys see the word bifurcation and jump to all sorts of extremes.

It's an equipment issue for golf, the normal rules of golf don't need to be changed. There is already bifurcation in place with the Groove Rule. It was put in place at the Professional Tour level 3 yrs ago. If you want to play in those events, your clubs have to be confirming. What's the big deal? The high level amateur groove condition doesn't go into effect until 2014 & supposedly it'll go into effect for all other players in 2024. How is that not bifurcation?

Different guidelines work just fine in other major sports. I don't see where the implementation of further equipment regulation is that complicated at the Tour level. It's simple, you want to play in a Tour Event?...You have to play with tour approved equipment. The Euro Tour, Web.com Tour, etc can follow suit. At the "professional" level, here is what you are allowed to play with...how is that difficult to understand?

Jslonis,
If you read the blog,you'll see the extreme ideas are from King, not GCA.
20 clubs, 15 inch cups?
You're correct there is bifucation currently, but at least it's current USGA rules vs. a few exceptions for USGA and PGA tour events,
not no rules vs. tournament rules.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2013, 01:32:48 PM »
JSlonis

I was responding to your comment about growing the game, and pointing out that that really isn't a concern for the game of golf.

Niall

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 01:42:44 PM »
Perhaps I should've been clearer, I don't agree that the fundamental rules need to be changed. I agree with bifurcation solely in regard to equipment.

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2013, 01:49:54 PM »
The USGA and the R&A have certainly dropped the ball, no pun intended, on the challenges to the game, but I think that TM have done a lot more harm by accelerating the product cycle so that it seems they need a couple of new driver launches a season. It was bad enough when everyone was just obsessed with the longest hitting adjustable drivers but now it is the longest irons too!

A pity from a company who made some really nice products at one stage.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: TaylorMade CEO: "The USGA within 10 years will be a non-entity"
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2013, 01:52:59 PM »
I never take the words of a man at the forefront of golf lightly.  Make no mistake, the CEO of Taylormade is one of those fellows.  Love or hate Taylormade's aggressive style, they make a big dent in golf.  I've met Mark King once, and he struck me as thoughtful and well spoken.  He did not strike me as a man that would say anything without understanding how it would be perceived at all angles.  I think he knows exactly what he is doing by saying such things in an interview.   I think he is sending a clear message to the USGA and the R&A.  The message is this,

 "At this juncture in golf, I am bigger than you.  I see things happening in golf that may or may not be hurting the game.  It doesn't matter because whatever I say goes. I can sell 5-layer balls.  I can make a golf club white and the entire industry will follow.  I can lengthen and deloft a 7-iron, making it a 6-iron, and convince everyone that they just hit their 7-iron 15 yards further.  I am doing anything I want with equipment because I can.  Because you're not stopping me. Maybe you should".

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