[Jonathan Mallard]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20130127/glf-us-open-winged-foot/?utm_hp_ref=homepage&ir=homepage

[jeffwarne]

Will the  tagline be "20 in 20"?
(as in projected stimp reading in all the advance USGA press)
plenty of time left to soften those pesky unfair undulations so it's "fair".
but by then they won't have to worry about those long putters which are evidently the reason so many classics are obsolete

[Mike_Trenham]

The Massacre at Wingedfoot may have a completely different meaning in 2020.

[V. Kmetz]

One of the few times scuttlebut has turned out to be true:

This is great news, though a long ways off...

Early forecast:

A. #3 will be played closer to the back of the new tee built for 06, where it CAN play up to 278, with a back pin.  In 06, they had it back there one day (Friday?), the pros cried...it didn't play more than 225 for the tournament...+20 yards

B. The only two or three shot holes where tee lengthening is even possible are 2 (+30), 9 (+20), 14 (a lot but already 470 from the 06 tees), 17 (15 yards at most) 18 (same). They will probably use all of this...+120 yards.

C.  The legendary 10th (Pulpit) will have a new tee cut into the open grass plaza between the Shop and 18th green and bump the distance by about 25-30 yards...with a back pin, it could play about 220. There were too many 7-irons used on the hole in 2006 and the hole didn't play decisively. +25

D.  Additional distance COULD be placed on the other 3s, but if #10 goes back - as I predict - and 3 is already prepped to be longer, I can't see them doing anything to 7 (which can play 175 now) and 13 (which has "some" room, but can play 220+ now) + 20 yards(?)

So, we are talking up to about 180 yards more than the tippity 06 numbers

Talk to you in eight years, if I make it.

cheers

vk

[Tim_Cronin]

Heard about this on Saturday. I wonder how beat up the East Course will be this time. Perhaps different arrangements will be made.

Phil Mickelson will be 50 in 2020. Will the USGA give him a free pass into the Open so he can play more smartly on the 72nd hole?

[V. Kmetz]

I thought the site plan last time was sound. And the use of train shuttle was well done. There is just a certain amount that can't be avoided, as the two courses interlock, not unlike two peace signs made with each hand.

4 & 8 E remain the broadest to be the public bus drop and entrance...
leading to the still-perfect  flat place for the Merch tent, on the member's range...
and 9 E is the only site to be the Pro range...
12 and 18 E are still going to be premium tented villages, as they abut the closing holes on West...
7 & 16 E are still going to be public areas as they deliver spectators to the front nine of the West
1 & 10 E remain the natural location for Media and Tournament Support

Perhaps they can better defend East green sites and surrounds with fencing.  Whatever they do, it's better than 1984 where there was PARKING on the East!  It was a hot, humid intermittent night thunderstorm  type of weather that year and the place was a quagmire in many spots...6 days of tires spinning, cars sliding into bunker edges, beach fencing around greens crashed down.  The old super there was catatonic.

cheers

vk

[Scott Weersing]

I was somewhat surprised that the USGA is going back to New York.

Which other course was in the running for the 2020 US Open?

Here was a thread about this topic: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=52522.0

So the courses now in the running for the 2021 US Open could be Southern Hills, Oakland Hills, Olympic CC and .....

I would have thought the USGA would go back to Southern Hills or chosen a place where they are playing the US Amateur such ast Cherry Hills.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Sadly, you could be right.

It's the greens that help make WFW so spectacular, it would be a crime to continue to soften them.

VKmetz,

I think # 1 was softened.

And you know that # 10 was considerably altered years ago

I always thought that # 8 was one of the hardest holes in golf.
And # 15 quite unique.

On my most recent round at WFW this past summer I was thinking how much it's changed since I first played it in the Anderson in the late 50's
It's so long that playing it all the way back in the Spring has to be impossible, even for the PGA Tour Pros.
Have you seen anyone play it all the way back in April or May ?

[Howard Riefs]

USGA press release:
http://www.usga.org/news/2013/January/Winged-Foot-To-Host-2020-U-S--Open/


A reminder of upcoming venues:

2013 -- Merion Golf Club, Ardmore, Pennsylvania.
2014 -- Pinehurst No. 2, Pinehurst, North Carolina.
2015 -- Chambers Bay, University Place, Washington.
2016 -- Oakmont Country Club, Oakmont, Pennsylvania.
2017 -- Erin Hills Golf Course, Erin, Wisconsin.
2018 -- Shinnecock Hills Golf Club, Southampton, New York.
2019 -- Pebble Beach Golf Links, Pebble Beach, California.
2020 -- Winged Foot Golf Club, Mamaroneck, New York.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-28/new-york-s-winged-foot-to-host-u-s-open-golf-tournament-in-2020.html

[John McCarthy]

I wonder when the tournament comes back to Chicago.  And where.  Medinah did a great job with the Ryder Cup but I don't know if the membership would want to tear up their course again.  Butler is out.  Olympia Fields again?  Would they really try to sell Dubsdread as an US Open course?  Chicago Highlands tried very hard to get the BMW but lost to Conway Farms. 

[V. Kmetz]

Pat,

No one plays the back tees at all; at least I never hear about it.   Even for the Anderson rounds or club championship, they don't set up past 7000 yards.  The newer (06-wrought) back tees on 2, 3, 12 and 14 are like the Museum of Toe-Nail clippings.  That's almost 180 yards of never seen distance, right there.

8 is WF's most thorough hole, probably the hardest "4" of the ones designed to be a "4"

15 is unique for us; for elite play it is all on the tee shot...controlling a 240-50 yard flight so it rolls out to the left down into the small pocket at the bottom of the fairway, where it's 145-130 left in on mostly level ground.  But miss the tee shot into the rough on either side and the hole becomes ferocious.

I saw your inclusion of 11 W on preferred short holes...I agree, I've come to respect that hole more with each round observed or played (though i barely play anymore).

"They" may have softened #1, but the softening must be in the first third of the green, because the "action" area - the rear two thirds is every bit as ferocious as I ever saw.  

Lord knows what tech specifications they will be playing to in 2020, but one thing the Pros better not get, and have rarely experienced at WF is a day or two of heavy wind...one day of 20-25 mph wind will send the cut to +12/+13 (+9 in 2006).

cheers

vk

[Jim Sherma]

I wonder when the tournament comes back to Chicago.  And where.  Medinah did a great job with the Ryder Cup but I don't know if the membership would want to tear up their course again.  Butler is out.  Olympia Fields again?  Would they really try to sell Dubsdread as an US Open course?  Chicago Highlands tried very hard to get the BMW but lost to Conway Farms. 

Does Erin Hills fill the slot for Chicagoland. I know it's two hours from downtown, but if Shiunnecock is deemed a New York venue the USGA might consider Erin a Chicago venue.

[Alex Miller]

I wonder when the tournament comes back to Chicago.  And where.  Medinah did a great job with the Ryder Cup but I don't know if the membership would want to tear up their course again.  Butler is out.  Olympia Fields again?  Would they really try to sell Dubsdread as an US Open course?  Chicago Highlands tried very hard to get the BMW but lost to Conway Farms. 

Does Erin Hills fill the slot for Chicagoland. I know it's two hours from downtown, but if Shiunnecock is deemed a New York venue the USGA might consider Erin a Chicago venue.

This was my thought too. To mix up the geography Southern Hills is a pretty good guess for 2021, and Pinehurst every 9 years would put it there for 2023.

2022 might go back to California. Olympic, or a dark horse... I optimistically predicted LACC for 2022 7 months ago. I'll stick with it.

[mark chalfant]

Its great to hear that  WF  East  is finally being  given its due appreciation

[Ross Harmon]

If we're in the guessing game... I think Cherry Hills might get the nod in 2021, then Chicagoland in 2022 and back to CA in 2023 (probably Olympic).

[V. Kmetz]

Beyond the merits of the courses themselves to produce USGA standards of competition...

1. Facility and big gates are likely to have huge influence on the site of the USGA's money-maker.  In that vein:
Bethpage
Torrey Pines
Pinehurst
...are likely to have a regular share of Opens in the next 25-50 years.  They are in populous, easily reached big facilities that can have top-most crowds.

2. The conduct of the tournament at first-time venues in the next 5 years (Chambers Bay and Erin Hills) might shift the paradigm to more new, previously unused spots.

3. Depending on the PGA's developed rota, I have to think that Baltusrol, Southern Hills and Oakland Hills will get another US Open before 2030.

4.  I think 2018 will be the last US Open @ Shinnecock for our lifetimes.

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

VKmetz,

WFW with wind would be impossible.

It's probably the hardest member golf course I've ever played from every set of tees and at par 70 it's almost unrelenting.

[V. Kmetz]

Patrick,

Agreed 100% on both counts. On the latter issue, the only thing that "saves" the member (and guest) experience from regular torture is that a significant percentage of play is conducted from a sensible 6450-6700 total yardage.  From that distance(s), I think WFW is a fun and challenging course...the members seem to know this.  Also, while the West is the "profile" course and gets the preponderance of guest play (a huge factor in the WF world) I'd wager that a private poll would reveal that the John Q Winged Foot Member prefers the East 60-40.

On the wind, my Anderson loop has been Buddy M the last two years...In 2011, the wind was NW and a steady 25-30 mph with gusts over 35...it was absolute survival for one of our greatest (if older now) amateur players.  Our pairing on the West happened to be with Steve Melnyk and his son and all were laughing by the Back Nine. Distance is one matter, but the lateral movement of the wind is just crushing there as you CANNOT miss a WF green to the sides, it leaves 30 foot putts for par unless you have drawn quite favorably.  On #9, the wind was down and balls that were hit smartly to bounce and trundle up just kept going right to the upswale at the back of the green. forget about dicey putts over 6 feet, they are a fright at speeds over 10-10.3

If you had Open narrowness, distance and rough and a wind approaching that...the scores would be astronomical.  They'd have to keep the greens under 9.5 to get a sensible group of scores. Downwind, the balls would roll right into the rough and off the greens to the sides and rear.  It doesn't matter if its played as a 70 or at level 4s (with 9 and 16 as Par 4s)...ruin for all if the US Open gets a day or two of wind.  There's no place to hide.

cheers

vk

[Joe_Tucholski]

Beyond the merits of the courses themselves to produce USGA standards of competition...

1. Facility and big gates are likely to have huge influence on the site of the USGA's money-maker.  In that vein:
Bethpage
Torrey Pines
Pinehurst
...are likely to have a regular share of Opens in the next 25-50 years.  They are in populous, easily reached big facilities that can have top-most crowds.

2. The conduct of the tournament at first-time venues in the next 5 years (Chambers Bay and Erin Hills) might shift the paradigm to more new, previously unused spots.

3. Depending on the PGA's developed rota, I have to think that Baltusrol, Southern Hills and Oakland Hills will get another US Open before 2030.

4.  I think 2018 will be the last US Open @ Shinnecock for our lifetimes.

cheers

vk

VK,

Not sure about your listed sites in number 1.  I thought the USGA has said bethpage is done, same with Torrey Pines - because they do not want the open at regular tour stops.  As far as pinehurst I hope it is in regular rotation and it's been said in mainstream media that pinehurst will get 2024, but your premise of populous and easy reached doesn't fit.

[V. Kmetz]

JT,

You could be right, but Bethpage isn't a regular tour stop as of right now (Barclay's is back to Liberty National this year) and though very unique...why wouldn't that thesis disqualify Pebble?  If you could isolate where the USGA has said they are "done" with either BB or TP, please forward it.

It may have been mis-stated by me to stipulate "populous;' modernity and the event's popularity will always draw a crowd to most any place, but Pinehurst is quite reachable, and of course, has the facility to host.

i'm just speculating though on all...trying to follow the money as it were.

cheers

vk

[Howard Riefs]

I would have thought the USGA would go back to Southern Hills or chosen a place where they are playing the US Amateur such ast Cherry Hills.

So did Southern Hills:

Southern Hills, site of the U.S. Open in 1958, 1977 and 2001, was optimistic it would be hosting its fourth Open in 2020 until news of the announcement leaked out over the weekend. "It was disappointing," said Southern Hills General Manager Nick Sidorkis. "We knew it was coming down to us and Winged Foot...."

"Our endeavor is we want to host the national championship," Sidorakis said. "We're going to continue until they tell us otherwise. We'd like to have it in 2021 or 2022. We were also hopeful to have it in 2020."

http://www.golfoklahoma.org/index.php?option=com_recentnews&id=4895&Itemid=622

[Joe_Tucholski]

JT,

You could be right, but Bethpage isn't a regular tour stop as of right now (Barclay's is back to Liberty National this year) and though very unique...why wouldn't that thesis disqualify Pebble?  If you could isolate where the USGA has said they are "done" with either BB or TP, please forward it.

It may have been mis-stated by me to stipulate "populous;' modernity and the event's popularity will always draw a crowd to most any place, but Pinehurst is quite reachable, and of course, has the facility to host.

i'm just speculating though on all...trying to follow the money as it were.

cheers

vk

The money bit does make sense it surprised me when I heard the open at pinehurst had the highest attendance numbers (total, and every individual day but Sunday).  I guess people come from a large radius.

Here's one blog post where Davis is quoted as saying no regular tour stops...but as you said bethpage is every 4 with the Barclays so explicitly stated still good unlike my memory.
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/8/20/bethpage-black-and-the-politics-of-hosting-majors.html

[JMEvensky]

VKmetz,

WFW with wind would be impossible.

It's probably the hardest member golf course I've ever played from every set of tees and at par 70 it's almost unrelenting.

Where's the relenting part?

[Terry Lavin]

I wonder when the tournament comes back to Chicago.  And where.  Medinah did a great job with the Ryder Cup but I don't know if the membership would want to tear up their course again.  Butler is out.  Olympia Fields again?  Would they really try to sell Dubsdread as an US Open course?  Chicago Highlands tried very hard to get the BMW but lost to Conway Farms. 

Here is my Chicago speculation.  First, I think the USGA thinks that it can mollify, to a certain extent, the thirst of Chicago golfers by putting the Open at Erin Hills.  Um, not so much.  As for the others, Butler is the obvious choice, once the club gets its head out of its posterior.  As for the others, Dubsdread has no shot after being pilloried in the press by the players.  The USGA doesn't seem like it wants to give OFCC another shot, which is unfortunate, because 95% of the bad press was because they ordered the rough to be cut to 3.5 inches and the players killed the course for two days.  By then, the PR damage had been done.  As for Chicago Highlands, give me a break.  They were vying for publicity, nothing more.  They haven't even hosted Western Suburban Private Club Team Matches yet, for Chrissakes.  It might be a good host for the CDGA Amateur, but that's about it.

I think it comes back to Butler.  So I'd say Chicago is out of luck for quite some time.  C'est la vie.

[V. Kmetz]

JME,

If I construed PM's description correctly (at a par of 70 it is unrelenting[for members certainly]), I beleive he's referring to the two (2) par-changed holes (#9 and #16).

When those holes are played as par 5s by members (or me, occasionally ) they are a bit of break, a place to re-trench with relation to the scorecard.  Of course, this is just on the psychology of a medal round to par...but 9 and 16 are indeed the easiest pars on the course when they are 5s.  The ability to achieve a par score on a course when missed greens and three putt doubles are everywhere, it is a place where the course "relents" and permits "success" - maybe gives a (gulp) birdie to the average player.  When you are playing them as 4s, and your "birdie" is now just a saved par and your 5 is another "bogey" the pressure takes on an unrelenting nature.

This idea might be true anywhere where a par is changed downward, but at WFW, the position of those holes is crucial to what PM is referencing...

#9, besides being the totaling key of your front side, comes nearly in the middle of the "easiest stretch" of the course...5-12, but is bracketed by two fiercely challenging holes, the wildly underrated 8th "Arena" and the famous par 3 10th "Pulpit".  If #9 is made into a 4 (again this is just psychological - you're total is your total) then the easiest stretch of the course no longer exists...it becomes JUST 5,6 and 7....if you don't make hay there, your medal round isn't going to be very good.

On the other end of the round, 16 (as a card 5) breaks up maybe the hardest stretch of Par 4s known in Golf...when 16 is a 460-480 yard "4" it means you close with five par 4s, 390, 410, 470, 440, 430 (members tees), all with difficult, well-defended greens, probably the least-birdied stretch of 5.

It is, to use the catch word, "unrelenting." When 9 and 16 are Par 5s and the course thus played at level-fours 72, there is an resemblance to an oasis at those points.

cheers

vk

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