[Brad Klein]

Just back from opening day at Streamsong in middle-of-nowhere Florida. Walked with Tom Doak over very cool ground that looks and feels nothing like the state it’s in. See links below to side-by-side-by-side swings of the architects and my review of resort’s Red & Blue Courses. Doak's swing holds up well to Ben's and Bill's.
http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/27/streamsong-opener-crenshaw-coore-and-doak-side-sid/
http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/raters-notebook-streamsong-red-course/
http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/16/raters-notebook-streamsong-blue-course/

[Ken Fry]

Brad,

Links aren't working.

Ken

[Joe Bausch]

Where did his drive end up?  A little bit right of mainstream, just maybe?!     

[Ken Fry]

Yup, working fine now.

I must say Tom's driver face is a bit more open than we like to see.....   

Ken

[Michael George]

Brad:

Interesting that you rate the Red slightly better than the Blue course with the difference appearing to be the routing of the Red being better than the routing of the Blue.   Did you enjoy the Red slightly more than the Blue or is that just how the rating came out?

At these ratings, Golfweek would have:

Red at #33 (in a tie with Double Eagle - which is overrated IMHO) - #3 in Florida Moderns behind TPC Sawgrass and Calusa Pines.  It also falls behind Sand Hills, Friars Head, Old Sandwich and Bandon Trails as C & C courses and ahead of Colorado GC, Cuscowilla, Kapalua, Hidden Creek and We-Ko-Pa as C &C courses. 

Blue at #51 (in a tie with Pronghorn Fazio) - #5 in Florida Moderns behind World Woods.  It also falls behind Pacific Dunes, Old Macdonald, Ballyneal, Sebonack and Rock Creek as Renaissance courses and ahead of Lost Dunes.

Does that seem about right for Streamsong or do you think it will settle higher or lower in the rankings?

Thanks.

[jeffwarne]

Yup, working fine now.

I must say Tom's driver face is a bit more open than we like to see.....  

Ken

I'm guessing he simply toed it and it ended up OK.


When struck slightly on the toe, the face will momentarily appear much more OPEN on video, yet as most know, the ball will generally start right and curve left-usually a very playable, attractive looking shot.
Opposite is true on heel, although generally a weaker shot.
The secret is, don't spoil a good shot with your mouth

[Mike Benham]

Brad -

A simple sum of the individual points puts both courses at 80 total points, do you weight each category differently to achieve the overall number?

Mike

[Jud_T]

The only thing left is for some Internet Gazillionaire to pay whatever it takes for Tom and Bill to actually route and shape 18 holes together and not leave the property until they're both 100% satisfied.  Tom, consciously rotate your right forearm to square the clubface at impact...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jud,

Collaboration dulls the creative spirit.

Didn't Tom try that somewhere ? 

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

Doak's collaborations with Mike Clayton at Barnbougle Dunes and St Andrews Beach turned out pretty damn well...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Doak's collaborations with Mike Clayton at Barnbougle Dunes and St Andrews Beach turned out pretty damn well...

How did it turn out at Sebonack ?

And would all courses have been better or worse without collaboration ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Who was it on another thread that claimed that Streamsong looked like any other Florida course ?

Others thought otherwise and in the article Tom Doak stated that Florida would have been his 47th guess at the site's location.

[Sven Nilsen]

Patrick,

Doak's collaborations with Mike Clayton at Barnbougle Dunes and St Andrews Beach turned out pretty damn well...

How did it turn out at Sebonack ?

And would all courses have been better or worse without collaboration ?

Depends who the collaborators are.  I'd venture that certain folks are rather immutable.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Any time there's a compromise entailing artistic license, it can't be easy, irrespective of who and how talented the parties are..

And, I'd imagine that the more talented the parties, the more difficult the colaboration, unless they've come to a mutual understanding.

Have you seen many statues commemorating a committee or joint venture ?

[Jeb Bearer]

Isn't every golf course a collaboration? Between the principal architect, his associates, construction crew, the client, you've got a lot of different parties providing various degrees of input. If you add another big architect, provided the two get along well enough, is it really that much of a difference, or is it just one more contributor of ideas?

[Brad Klein]

Mike Benham,
unlike one of the (other) big golf publications, Golfweek doesn't pretend to be pseudo-scientific. We don't have some percentage formula; the separate category are constitutive of the ratings but not in any formulaic weight. Those are the elements we want folks to evaluate but the overall vote is a non-cumulative, stand-alone judgment.

Michael George,
the final outcome of ratings is simply an average of all ballots, so there's no reason to assume that one set of votes is representative or conclusive. While your accounting is correct if mine were the average, I'd much prefer to see how the numbers pan out and let that determine where these two fine courses stand. So I am not going to speculate, predict or further editorialize.

[Brian Finn]

Regarding collaboration...I believe there can be all the collaboration in the world, and perhaps even complete delegation of important tasks (e.g. Allowing trusted associates to do shaping work), but ultimately there needs to be a 'lead dog' providing the vision, direction, and oversight. True collaboration can work, but with low success rates. It is sort of like a corporation trying to have co-CEOs...maybe in 10% of cases it could work, but generally a bad idea, especially when dealing with powerful, opinionated, confident people.  I think you have to catch lightning in a bottle for these sort of collaborations to work.  Just my humble opinion.

[James Bennett]

Have you seen many statues commemorating a committee or joint venture ?

Patrick

have you seen either of the two collaborations that Sven referred too?  Perhaps you just haven't seen everything after all.

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

Isn't every golf course a collaboration? Between the principal architect, his associates, construction crew, the client, you've got a lot of different parties providing various degrees of input. If you add another big architect, provided the two get along well enough, is it really that much of a difference, or is it just one more contributor of ideas?

Jeb,

While others can contribute, it's the architect who conceptualizes and creates the guiding vision/plans.

The architect must be the sole interpreter/arbiter, otherwise you'd have chaos

[Adam Clayman]

Playing too much golf is a good thing, and is likely what separates Tom's courses from most other designers.


He understands how many of us play the game, and more importantly, why we play.  For fun.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Any time there's a compromise entailing artistic license, it can't be easy, irrespective of who and how talented the parties are..

And, I'd imagine that the more talented the parties, the more difficult the colaboration, unless they've come to a mutual understanding.

Have you seen many statues commemorating a committee or joint venture ?

Beware of the man who builds monuments to himself.

[Bart Bradley]

Patrick,

Doak's collaborations with Mike Clayton at Barnbougle Dunes and St Andrews Beach turned out pretty damn well...

How did it turn out at Sebonack ?

And would all courses have been better or worse without collaboration ?

Patrick:

Barnbougle Dunes is spectacular.  World top 20 spectacular.  I wouldn't bet that it would have been better without Clayton...it is just so good now.

Bart

[Sven Nilsen]

Have you seen many statues commemorating a committee or joint venture ?

Patrick

have you seen either of the two collaborations that Sven referred too?  Perhaps you just haven't seen everything after all.

James B

Have to give credit to Scott for bringing up Barnie and St. Andrews beach.

Old Mac also turned out pretty well, as has just about every C&C project.

From what I've learned, sebonack was less a collaboration than it was a project with defined roles.  Happy to have Tom describe the process in more detail if I've got this wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Any time there's a compromise entailing artistic license, it can't be easy, irrespective of who and how talented the parties are..

And, I'd imagine that the more talented the parties, the more difficult the colaboration, unless they've come to a mutual understanding.

Have you seen many statues commemorating a committee or joint venture ?

Beware of the man who builds monuments to himself.

In the U.S. those commemorative statues aren't built by the subject, but, you should have known that, even in Chicago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Have you seen many statues commemorating a committee or joint venture ?

Patrick

have you seen either of the two collaborations that Sven referred too?  Perhaps you just haven't seen everything after all.

James B

Have to give credit to Scott for bringing up Barnie and St. Andrews beach.

Old Mac also turned out pretty well,

So, you're stating, for the record, that Old Macdonald was a collaborative effort, with equal responsibility and authority in the hands of all parties involved.

That's a significant departure from my understanding.

as has just about every C&C project.

Your reading comprehension skills must be lacking.
Didn't you read the part specifically directed toward C&C ?

unless they've come to a mutual understanding

From what I've learned, sebonack was less a collaboration than it was a project with defined roles. 

Then why would Mike Pascucci declare that one of his roles was to break a tie in the event that Tom and Jack couldn't come to agreement.
If they had seperate, defined roles, as you've stated, there would be no ties.

What were Doak's defined roles and what were Nicklaus's defined roles ?

Happy to have Tom describe the process in more detail if I've got this wrong.

I  wouldn't blame Tom for declining your invitation.

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