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Dan Herrmann

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2013, 04:10:16 PM »
I just wish 12 had been left alone, or if needed, softened a bit down at the front.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 08:39:42 AM by Dan Herrmann »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2013, 06:23:28 PM »
I don't pretend to know the course as well as many posting here, but I played it last year and my lasting impression was that the USGA is determined to take the driver out of the pros hands on most of the holes. Easily the most severe combination of narrow fairways/thick rough I have ever seen. It will be fascinating to see who plays bomb and gouge versus iron-iron to the greens.

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2013, 06:48:21 PM »
The work on 12 green might would be best appreciated by a middle-of-the-road Myrtle Beach-style course architect.  I think there may be plans to restore the green after the Open.

12 green has gone from brilliant/terrifying to mundane/boring.  Gee, thanks, Tom Fazio!
Wow.  Dan don't you think that's a bit of an overreach?? Yes the green was terrifying, now it just scares the crap out of you with a downhill putt.

Merion boring??   Middle of the road  architect??  I hope the lightning is on your side of 401.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2013, 12:38:25 AM »
Ed - Not Merion - the ersatz 12th green.

ChipOat

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2013, 09:24:36 AM »
Dan Hermann:

I have putted on the "new" twelfth green in both competition and, more importantly, with 3 balls from 10 different places on that green.  I assure you it is anything but mundane and/or boring.  However, a downhill putt is now going to actually stay on the green unless it is simply struck too firmly.  The risk of human error has not been eliminated.  I can only conclude that 1) you are the world's greatest putter or 2) you have not putted on the "revised" edition.  If the latter, your comments are uninformed.  If the former, congratulations.

Dean:

While your caddy was correct, he was not correct about applying his judgement only to Merion and the U.S. Open.  The higher and farther today's players can hit it (technology + better athletes), Pat Mucci is even more correct that Mother Nature now dictates scoring conditions in every major championship on every course everywhere.  Bethpage, Torrey Pines, Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills, Winged Foot, Pinehurst, etc., etc. - not just Merion.

Tim Weiman:

I don't agree with your Pat Mucci approach.  "Of course we should increase green speeds" is not a positive, but it is permanent reality unless/until the monetary cost becomes unbearable for all but the top clubs that will always be able to afford it.  While Pat and you would like this discussion to transcend Merion, the fact is that the 2013 U.S. Open is, in fact, coming to Merion and things needed to be done.  It happens at Augusta, it happened at Bethpage and the U.S. Open tee boxes at Shinnecock are so far back you have to look for a few them.  Any suggestion that Merion's East Course is, somehow, more sacrosanct than Winged Foot, Shinnecock et al is nice to hear, but 1) I don't see why that is so and 2) by definition, that denies the club the ability to host a USGA men's Amateur or Open.  Should that decision not rest with the club and the USGA?

Patrick:

#7 green at Shinnecock and #18 green at Olympic were not the USGA's finest hour.  However, it won't happen again (at least, not there), Olympic has since hosted another Open and SHGC will, undoutedly, do the same.  Even Pinehurst has come back from the "architectural dead" after having been made into the ultimate resort course.

My sources at the PA Golf Association and the Golf Association of Philadelphia say they have no plans to use the U.S. Open tee boxes at any future state/city Amateurs or Opens.  Will they "cheat" on that in a couple of places?  Of course.  However, several holes would be unplayable for 90% of the field.  In fact, for cost reasons, it would not surprise me if 3 or 4 of the 2013 tee boxes are not maintained after the event.  They simply make no sense for anyone but the longest and the best.

Ed:

You are correct that you will see plenty of right side "bail-outs" off the 15th tee come June.  I have two observations on that.  1) Between the inevitable high rough and the tall pines blocking the approach to the 15th green, playing it "safe" to the right will keep the ball in-bounds but more bogies will result than not, I wager. 2) Forcing the player to aim towards the OB is what Hugh Wilson was all about!  That third fairway bunker + the added length creates the same brave play off the tee that #'s 2,4,5,7 and 18 have always required in order to set up the best approach.  Also, the second shot on #2 must be played towards/along the OB in order to set up the best angle for the shot to the green - especially with the new fairway bunker that is short/left of the green.  #15 has been "Wilsonized"!

« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 09:28:13 AM by chipoat »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2013, 09:46:43 AM »
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« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 08:37:33 AM by Dan Herrmann »

JESII

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2013, 09:57:37 AM »

While Pat and you would like this discussion to transcend Merion, the fact is that the 2013 U.S. Open is, in fact, coming to Merion and things needed to be done.




Chip,

With respect, the quote above, especially the bold part, is the jumping off point for me. I believe all these changes are under the guise of necessary action and I challenge that notion.

Quite simply I would ask what's the worst that happens if nothing were done? What's the best that could come out of it?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2013, 10:37:46 AM »

The work on 12 green might would be best appreciated by a middle-of-the-road Myrtle Beach-style course architect.  
I think there may be plans to restore the green after the Open.

I can't imagine that happening and think that's wishful thinking on your part, or deflective PR by the club.


12 green has gone from brilliant/terrifying to mundane/boring.  Gee, thanks, Tom Fazio!

Dan,

Tom Fazio has nothing to do with it, he's just the instrument of the membership/club.
If it wasn't Tom Fazio it would be another architect, he's merely a hired hand.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 10:40:38 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2013, 10:48:42 AM »
Patrick - I can see your point about Fazio, but I don't agree.   If he's just a hired hand, he sold out to make a buck.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2013, 11:01:15 AM »
Chip oat,

It's not back tees I'm concerned with, and don't forget, driving distance is longer at the NCAA tournament than on the PGA Tour.

My concern is the greens.

New, longer tees can easily be abandoned or even plowed under, but when you soften/disfigure a green it tends to be permanent.

GCGC disfigured their 12th green in the early 1960's and it took them 50 years, the last 10+ of which I lobbied for, to get them to re-institute a sympathetic restoration.

I don't see one of the greatest greens of all time, that was recently softened,  being restored.  In fact, if speeds increase, I can see it being further softened/disfigured.   I'm talking about the 2nd at PV.

Now let's go a step further.
The 18th at PV was softened/disfigured 90 years ago and remains unrestored.
Maybe GCGC's restoration of # 12 will influence the restoration of other great lost greens.

Back to Merion

It's in the club's genetic makeup to host tournaments.
This won't be their last event, and as green speeds increase, other greens, or even the same greens, will come into the crosshairs.

Ask yourself this question:

Would the world of golf and competitive golf suffer if green speeds never get higher than their current speeds ?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2013, 11:07:06 AM »
+1

As an aside, Gil Hanse, working with the Head Greenkeeper at my club, determined the highest stimp speed we should see is around 10.5   After that, they become almost unplayable.    We might have had 5 guys complain - the rest of us completely supported it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2013, 11:20:23 AM »

Patrick - I can see your point about Fazio, but I don't agree.  
If he's just a hired hand, he sold out to make a buck.

Dan,

He didn't "sell out"

He has a responsibility to his employees to make payroll

He's in business to make a buck

He has employees who depend upon his ability to get projects under contract so that they can support their families.

If Merion decided to alter or create an addition to their clubhouse would you call the general contractor, electricians, and painters, "sell outs" ?

It's the club and it's members who sell out, not vendors under contract.

Like a husband who catches his unfaithful wife, Merion,  you want to blame the other guy, who has no obligation to you, instead of the real culprit, the wife, Merion.

Fazio isn't to blame, Merion is.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2013, 11:26:43 AM »
Pat Mucci,

Thanks to you and Chipoat for your very rationale, articulate exchange of ideas regarding Merion's preparation for the Open.

Tim,

Thanks.

It's easy for me and Chipoat to have a "very rationale, articulate exchange of ideas" because neither one of us are "morons", like so many others on this site. ;D ;D


Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2013, 12:27:23 PM »
Ok you rational and clear thinkers, should there be a " speed limit" on greens?

Would the game be better served if like Dans course 10.5 was recognized as the limit for competition? What do we gain as a community of golfers when some demand upwards of 11?

Chipoat , I was thinking the same thing , a bailout right leads to an entire subset of issues . I hope one day I get to work the left side landing zone, maybe I can find the ball I hooked last year.
Ed
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

ChipOat

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2013, 05:48:27 PM »
Dan Hermann:

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  However, I repeat my question from post #54 - have you actually PLAYED the 12th hole, or practiced putting on the 12th green, since the pitch in certain places was slightly reduced?

Have to run; will answer you other guys later.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2013, 08:41:19 PM »
Jim Sullivan:

Had Merion remained unaltered in any way, The East Course would not be U.S. Open caliber.  But then, do you know any 6700 yard courses that would be U.S. Open caliber anymore?

Also, the 12th and 15th greens would still be unputtable - just as the 7th at Shinnecock and, two Opens ago, the 18th at Olympic.

The best that can come out of it is a successful U.S. Open - however you choose to define it.  As Pat Mucci has noted, much of that ALWAYS depends on Mother Nature - not just in 2013.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2013, 09:40:31 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 08:40:30 AM by Dan Herrmann »

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2013, 09:50:18 PM »
I respectfully disagree.  As one who putted off the damn thing numerous times I am sure I have a slanted view. I even had several shots spin off it in the balata days. I firmly believe that front slope steepened over the thirty years I have played there.

Or I just might be crazy too.

Ed
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2013, 10:17:54 PM »
Ed - Very good point.  
With that in mind, do you think that simply softening the slope down on the front 20% of the green could have accomplished the desired goal without destroying the original green?

Using a simile, it's like a doctor doing major surgery to resolve a toothache.

ChipOat

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2013, 11:06:09 PM »
Dan Hermann:

Alright, your opinion qualifies as "informed"  although, not surprisingly, I am in Ed's camp as I share his experiences both playing the hole (and #15) and watching the 2005 U.S. Amateur.

Patrick:

I am sure there are many members of the Treehouse that think I'm a moron given my intractable positions on Stupid Trees and the solution to Golden Era greens that have become unputtable because the clubs have, and will continue, to succumb to the siren's song of super fast greens.

However, since I never resort to name calling on GCA, it may be awkward for those who think I am a moron to come right out and say it.  Also, I never really argue a point to death.  I state my position and I (politely) answer those who disagree.  Since these discussions are almost always about opinions instead of facts, I see nothing to be gained by arguing about opinions.  I have neither the interest or the time.

Finally, although I find GCA intellectually interesting when the discussion is about courses that I have played (fewer than most on the site) , the importance of golf architecture is not as high on my list as world hunger or the shenanigans on Capitol Hill.  Since I have recently moved to DC, I have become increasingly appalled by what (doesn't) happen up there.

I have, however, been called both a shill and a sycophant - neither of which I believe to be true.  In both cases, I have chosen to ignore those posts.  It's kind of hard to insult someone who won't take the bait.

However, let the record show that anyone on GCA who thinks I'm a moron will have the full support of my teenage children and, in many instances, also my wife.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2013, 07:16:09 AM »
Chip - I've known morons in my life, and you, sir, are no moron!

Actually, I think the issue is actually happening now with most every course that holds a major in the USA.  So many changes are being made to our treasures because the USGA/R&A lost control of the game by allowing the golf ball distance to explode.

Roll back the ball, and the problems fix themselves.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:08:54 AM by Dan Herrmann »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2013, 11:19:38 AM »
Chipoat,

Ditto on the kids and wife, how true.

Look, I understand how green slopes don't function as originally intended due to increased speeds, and I understand the perceived need to soften/disfigure them.

My concern is the progression of that thinking.

Where will it end, when greens have lost their character, that which makes them unique and distinguishes them from other greens.

Merion, Pine Valley and Winged Foot are icons in American golf.

If local clubs see them ripping up and softening their greens it sends the signal that it's OK for the local club to do the same.

A difference is, chances are the local club didn't put the thought into it, or consult with outsiders to the degree that the icons did.

In addition, the icons have specific purposes in mind when they soften/disfigure a green.

At local clubs it's often on a whim, usually based upon the perception of "fairness" the ENEMY of all creative architecture, by those currently in power, or their wives.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #72 on: February 17, 2013, 11:32:33 AM »
Dan,
I helped rate the East five years ago. We spent a fair amount of time on the green with a stimp and a dozen balls. Also played it a few times last year. Unless I am missing something I only saw work on the front and rear. A believe it was a softening in those areas. To the best of my ability to recall I did not see an entire green overhaul.

If you Merion guys could correct me it would be appreciated.

Pat I see your point to a point. I saw a three cap putt the ball off the green three times at WFW,  on a par three, I cannot recall the hole number.  We all knew it was fast, he is a great putter. The green speed was just insane.
Ed
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2013, 11:56:48 AM »
Ed,

OK,

and a very good amateur six (6) putted # 18 at Seminole

So do you flatten # 10 at WFW and # 18 at Seminole ?

Or do you say, enough is enough, we're not going to flatten/disfigure any more great greens, we're going to cap speed.

11 is fast enough no matter where you're playing.

Don't you MORONS get it. (Not you Ed)

The whole reason that green speeds are increasing to insane levels is to protect par from the inroads made due to the failure to regulate hi-tech vis a vis the I&B.

Someone, anyone, please tell me that you understand the relationship between the need for speed and the protecting of par, or are you all just morons ?;D

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I the only one who thinks that the Merion work is a travesty?
« Reply #74 on: February 17, 2013, 02:05:01 PM »
Pat,
 Flatten them  all out ? Of course not, we all suffer from the occasional brain fart and have the old guy  putting spasms. So train wrecks are a part of the game.

I love the idea of keeping greens speeds reasonable, as in 10 to 11.  But I think you would agree the green in question was designed by Mr. Wilson to be putted at  6 to 7 max.

I think we agree more than disagree. Thanks for not calling me a moron, my wife insists that's her domain.
Ed
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

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