[Bryan Izatt]

Thanks Nate.  So, it is near the end of the green before it dips down to the lower level in the following picture.  Apart from the stop sign they'll have to hit a straight shot over the trees and road to reach the center or left of the fairway.  Seems a bit silly to me, although it will surely be challenging, even for the best.  It sort of renders the rest of the putting green useless, at least for the Open.  So, back to Dan's original post, although not a travesty, it does look kind of silly.  I assume that the tee will never be used again after the Open.

[JESII]

I assume that the tee will never be used again after the Open.

God willing!

[Mark McKeever]

I believe that area will be maintained as putting green after the open.  Has anyone else heard similar?

Mark

[Nate Oxman]

Bryan, It's all the way on the right edge of the green probably somewhere in line with the fifth car from the bottom (silver) parked along Golf House Road.

[Bryan Izatt]

Nate,

Thanks.  Is there supposed to be a picture appended to the post?

[Nate Oxman]

Sorry about that, I was referring to this aerial shot. Not sure if the link will work, first time trying it.

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/merione/aerial.htm

[Bryan Izatt]

Thanks Nate, got it now.  From there the STOP sign will definitely have to go.  I guess they won't have grandstands around the curve on Golf House Road.  Any idea where they will locate grandstands?  There doesn't appear to be a whole lot of places to put them where they wouldn't be in the way.

What will they use as the putting green, the one behind #1 tee?

[ChipOat]

Ah yes - a mid-winter Merion thread to break the monotony.  However, I started several threads in Aug and Sept on these very subjects.  If I knew how to bring them up, I would do so.

Dan Hermann: No, you're not the only one.  However, I DO think the changes made for 2013 were both necessary and not "architectural suicide" as PPallotta calls it.  Fortunately, we are both entitled to our opinion(s).

Neil White:  Not that I'm aware of.

Jason Walker:  No and Yes.  THANK YOU FOR YOUR ARTICULATE SUPPORT OF THE "SOFTENING OF THE PITCH" ON THE 12TH AND 15TH GREENS.  It had gotten, as you describe, like windmills and clown noses on those two greens.  I started a thread on that, too.

Bill Brightly:  You are, alas, 100% correct about 10+ Stimp greens being here to stay.  My friend Pat Mucci is still chasing sunsets in the East in his lonely attempt to get Golden Era clubs to return their greens to the speed for which they were designed.  I, on the other hand, have thrown in the towel and accepted the unfortunate, but inevitable, truth.  Hence, my support for #12 and #15 at Merion.  I can think of several other marvelous courses that Patrick and I both know well that need to do the same thing.

Mike Sweeney:  I also like that the fairway has been moved to the left on #11.  However, I cannot see where the 11th and 12th fairways have been combined.  If you mean that the small patch of rough at the bottom of the hill has been removed, that is no place to be off the 11th tee as there are big trees in your way.

All:  I made my points on the threads I started late last year.  Somebody bring them up and take a whack at me there, if you wish.

[Phil McDade]

All:  I made my points on the threads I started late last year.  Somebody bring them up and take a whack at me there, if you wish.

Here they are:

12th and 15th green softening:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50612.0.html

A general report:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53703.0.html

More -- the infamous stop sign on the 14th:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52483.0.html

The 18th fairway:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53175.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chip,

Yes, I continue to tilt at windmills.

One of my main concerns is that green speeds will continue to increase thus leading to more disfigurations of classic greens.

And the insidious aspect is that many courses, caught up in the quest for speed, will cite Merion, Winged Foot and Pine Valley as courses that have softened/disfigured their classic greens in an effort to accommodate higher speeds.

Where will it end ?

When every green is pancake flat, void of a scintilla of character and distinctiveness ?

Not the right direction for architecture to be heading.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Maybe it will end when common sense prevails and people realize green speeds at 14 are not in the best interest of the game or the course.
So sadly the answer is never.

[ChipOat]

Patrick,

Like trees that don't grow to the sky, at some point green speeds will max out (at a far-too-high speed, I'm afraid).  Also, I believe your concern over pancake-flat greens is less likely than you fear.  In fact, recent history has shown that clubs which are not imminent hosts of a USGA event are not inclined to make the changes they should given their insistence on high speed.

Also, the labor and mower blades to keep greens that fast is EXPENSIVE.  Except for the most desirable clubs, when will the operating budgets be forced to recognize the finances of an aging, retired Baby Boomer population?

At many "normal" clubs, this problem may fix itself.  At Top 10/20 courses, I'm afraid it will continue.

Chip

[Rich Goodale]

Got to this late, but have they made any significant changes since I was there in Nov 2001?

If so, HH Barker must be spinning in his grave.....

[Dan Herrmann]

Rich - significant they are. 

[Ed Brzezowski]

Truth be told I do like the work on 12 green, I believe it will open up the green to several more pinable areas. Worked the 05 Am and watched balls spin off that green in almost every group. While some were the result of overspinning the ball, yes hard hit wedges do spin more, but also saw some very nice shots come off that green.

I do like the fairway on 11, this will sound stupid but it just seems to look nice to my eye.
The fairway movement on 2 is insane and I dislike the new bunker on 2 also.

Whoever pointed out the incresed cost of blades and sharpening has a very good point. I had no idea the sharpening machines cost more than my first 5 cars combined.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chip,

I know a number of local courses that have flattened their greens for "speed's sake"

Has it reached epidemic proportions ?   No, not yet,  but the trend is there.

[ChipOat]

Ed B.

I am told those blades are $50+ each and they wear out after two uses.  That's nine blades/day = $450/day just for mower blades.  The price won't be going DOWN, so you do the math.

Rich Goodale,

Assuming you are sane and play from the members' tee boxes or the non-U.S. Open back tees (6700 yards max), you will notice changes, but the shot values are unchanged.  The 12th and 15th greens are now putt-able and IMO, the three new fairway bunkers are far more positive than not.  Presumably, the narrow fairways will be re-widened following the tournament.  That is the official plan and 95% of the membership will raise holy hell if it isn't done.  The East Course was HARD this past year - even from 6200 yards.

It escapes me as to why the added length for U.S. Open players is giving the Treehouse such heartburn.  Yes, the property is not designed for it in several places (but NOT all) and crowd control will be an issue as a result.  However, while the aesthetics are SOMETIMES imperfect, the shot values for those guys will be the same as yours and mine (and the GCA guys') from 800+ yards less on the card.

Sometimes, it sounds much too much like the bunker project.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Good Lord I had not thought it was that much. I better put my application in since they may need some additional income.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

I'd agree that adding length for a U.S. Open shouldn't raise eyebrows, but, when it convolutes a hole's architectural integrity, you have to question  it's merits.

[ChipOat]

Patrick:

I agree with you 100%, BUT......

At the risk of not being a "true believer", if I don't have to play a hole that's been architecturally diminished, I don't really care if others choose to (or have to).

More importantly, with the possible exception of the tee shot on #14 (I will spend much time there in June checking it out), I don't see that any changes at Merion have diminished the architectural merits of any of the holes.  In fact, as you and I agreed, the "backwards lengthening" of the fairway on #18 has earned the Good Golf Architecture Seal of Approval - at least, from you and me.

So, if anyone chooses to play Merion from 7100 yards and is in way over their head because they simply cannot hit the ball far enough to enjoy the intended shot values, that is their problem and not mine.  You'll find me at the 6500 yard tee boxes - at most.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

I don't disagree with you regarding the choice to play # 14 from that location, but, it transcends Merion, it sends a signal that it's okay to disfigure a hole in the name of providing a more severe challenge.

Now, take that down to the regional and state level, and what impact it might have on courses hosting State amateurs and State Opens.

Definitely agree that # 18 is a better hole with fairway extended toward the tee.

[Dean Stokes]

Firstly I have never been to Merion nor played it. Our caddie the other week however, who is a good golfer, has caddied there hundreds of times. He said that the weather ( more the firmness/softness) will really effect the scoring due to the way the fairways have now been cut/angled. He said that if it is firm and fast that many of the holes will be very difficult to hit the short stuff due to the contouring therefore it will be hard to hit he greens - hence the scoring could be high. Soft conditions on the other hand will make it more target golf which the players will eat up and probably go low. Any thoughts from those who know the course and the new set up? Thanks.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Dean don't forget the fairway rollers. Nothing like hitting a draw to a fairway that runs at 9.

Working on 15 , expecting to see a lot of right bailouts.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean,

Long ago I predicted that Mother Nature will dictate scoring.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci,

Thanks to you and Chipoat for your very rationale, articulate exchange of ideas regarding Merion's preparation for the Open.

Much as I respect what Chipoat is saying - and it is great to have input from someone intimately familiar with the course - I am inclined to agree with you that the discussion transcends Merion because Merion is, well, Merion. By that I mean it is one of those elite examples of American golf architecture with a grand history and so what the club does cant help but influence what other clubs do. Shame on the USGA for encouraging clubs like Merion to soften greens just to accommodate green speeds that most golfers really can't handle. I'm convinced in years to come people will recognize this is a big mistake. Unfortunately, right now that is just not what the powers that be are concerned about.

To Chipoat I would say that his very rationale comments are part of what makes those who want soften green so seductive. Of course we should increase green speeds, the logic goes. Of course, we must soften old classic era greens the logic continues. Of course, of course, of course!

Not to me. So, thanks for not throwing in the towel. And, to quote your hated rival in LA, fight on!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()