[Patrick_Mucci]

Merion gets for having not one, but several crossovers in the routing ?

Other courses were admonished and some villified for having a crossover, Merion has several, yet no one ever cites the crossovers as an architectural flaw or demerit.

At one time, you almost had to walk through the clubhouse after playing # 13.
Certainly not an ideal routing, especially with all the criticisms on green to tee walks on the other thread.

Why does Merion get a pass for what is perceived as a major design flaw......... repetitively ?

[Sean Leary]

Merion gets for having not one, but several crossovers in the routing ?

Other courses were admonished and some villified for having a crossover, Merion has several, yet no one ever cites the crossovers as an architectural flaw or demerit.

At one time, you almost had to walk through the clubhouse after playing # 13.
Certainly not an ideal routing, especially with all the criticisms on green to tee walks on the other thread.

Why does Merion get a pass for what is perceived as a major design flaw......... repetitively ?

Perhaps because of the small acreage? Perhaps of the history there? Perhaps a combination of the two?

[Bill_McBride]

Are those crossovers that require a lengthy hike, or just crossing traffic from a different green to a different tee?   (Note, I regrettably have never played Merion.)

I see a couple of green to tee walks at Streamsong Blue that require walking around a green on the Red course.  Does that mean the Streamsong routings are flawed?

(By the way, when I think of "crossovers," I think of examples like Royal Porthcawl, where the first tee shot plays directly across the 18th fairway!)

[Ed Brzezowski]

You can stop at the bar between 13 and 14?

You know Pat that is a great question that I never thought about. I have heard it about TOC every time we play it but the same guys think the walk across the third tee to six tee is fine.
Good question.

[David_Elvins]

Pat,

Long walks over/under roads are often criticised because they are a disjointing experience.  The golfer is removed from the golf course and into a different environment and then transplanted back into the golf course. There is no such occurrence at Merion because the course always feels connected with its surrounding neighbourhood.  The roads and surrounding houses are not screened from the course but are part of the course.   Also the walks across the road are small.  Its less than 50 yards from 12 green to 13 tee, the fact that you cross a road adds or takes away nothing from the experience. 

[Mac Plumart]

Pat, I've never played Merion...but I'll make the general statement that many of the established great courses get the benefit of the doubt in many ways.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Long walks over/under roads are often criticised because they are a disjointing experience.  The golfer is removed from the golf course and into a different environment and then transplanted back into the golf course. There is no such occurrence at Merion because the course always feels connected with its surrounding neighbourhood. 

You can't be serious.

How many times have you played Merion ?

The roads and surrounding houses are not screened from the course but are part of the course.   

Again, you can't be serious.

Also the walks across the road are small.  Its less than 50 yards from 12 green to 13 tee, the fact that you cross a road adds or takes away nothing from the experience. 

Of course it does unless you want to make excuses for the routing, basically giving it a free pass, while at the same time, using the same criterion/criteria to criticize other courses.  You can't have it both ways.

What about the walk from # 13 green to # 14 tee ?  Surely you're not going to tell me that's a short walk.
You have to walk right across the 1st fairway.

How is walking across a very busy street not disjointed ?
How is the walk from # 13 green to # 14 tee not disjointed ?

You'd have to be oblivious to your surroundings or incredibly biased to contend that the crossovers on the golf course and the crossing of roads, twice, don't create a disjointed experience

[Scott Warren]

How many times have you played Merion?

The point at which any thread featuring Pat Mucci turns into a complete clustercuss.

[jim_lewis]

The walks from the 1st green to the second tee and from the 12th green to the 13th tee may be short, but you risk your life crossing a very busy street, especially during the morning and afternoon rush hours. I doubt if any modern course would be excused by the raters.

[Greg Tallman]

The walks from the 1st green to the second tee and from the 12th green to the 13th tee may be short, but you risk your life crossing a very busy street, especially during the morning and afternoon rush hours. I doubt if any modern course would be excused by the raters.

I think this is Pat's point and he is dead on if that is how courses are "rated"

[Sean_A]

As with an awkward crossing/hitch in a routing, it depends on what comes next.  In Merion's case, very good holes and/or stretches of holes follow hitches and in three cases (two over the road and one over the 6th tee - which is a brilliant part of the routing) they are quite short walks.  The one problem is 13 to 14.  That is very awkward, we just crossed a road and 14 is a bit of an odd hole.  No, Merion's routing gets it right.  In any case, Merion has far larger issues with narrow fairways and bunkers marooned in rough than it does with awkward crossovers.

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'd say it's akin to Marilyn Monroe having 6 toes on each foot, i.e., who cares when the rest of package is so good.   

[Alex Miller]

I'd say it's akin to Marilyn Monroe having 6 toes on each foot, i.e., who cares when the rest of package is so good.   

And this board has one giant foot fetish. 


Ardmore ave used to be much smaller, correct? I think the pass comes from a similar nature of the course evolving along with its surroundings. I'm really excited to watch the US Open this year!

[Patrick_Mucci]

How many times have you played Merion?

The point at which any thread featuring Pat Mucci turns into a complete clustercuss.

Scott,

Only a moron would contend that Ardmore Ave, a busy thoroughfare, is not only an integral part of the course, but not responsible for  any "disjointing"

Only someone not familiar with the course would deem the crossovers and street crossings as not being disjointing, hence, I was obligated to ascertain how "practically" familiar David is with the course.

It's a significant and relevant question given his assessment on the crossovers and street crossings.

That you don't see that indicates that you're more focusing on my "questioning" him, rather than the merits of the question.
But, that doesn't surprise me.

[John Kavanaugh]

The walks from the 1st green to the second tee and from the 12th green to the 13th tee may be short, but you risk your life crossing a very busy street, especially during the morning and afternoon rush hours. I doubt if any modern course would be excused by the raters.

Yea, maybe before Golfweek decided they needed 700 raters. Modern is suddenly 53 this year, makes me feel young. Why don't we all just hold hands and admit that crossovers are a good thing. Everything will be fine.

Strange isn't it that at Dismal New we decided to cross a road with 2000 acres at our disposal. Crossing roads ain't just for chickens.

[Chip Gaskins]

My two favorite courses in the world cross roads...Royal Melbourne and Shinnecock Hills, twice.

Oakmont?  That is the Pennsylvania Turnpike and railway, no?

Lahinch has holes that literally cross each other.

Your beloved Maidstone crosses a road several times.

Crystal Downs, there's a few hundred yard trek through the forest between 11 and 12.

Oh yea, there's that road thing going on at Cypress Point too.

[Dave McCollum]

What no mention of the approach to #7 and the tee shot on #11 on the TOC?  Before the round I made a mental note to look at this carefully when I got there.  Fact is, I got so caught up in the round and experience I completely forgot.  Twice.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chip,

Most of the roads you mentioned get very little traffic and there's no physically crossing the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

In addition, I don't believe any of those courses have the numerous crossovers that Merion has.

Merion has road crossings and internal crossovers.

Why does Merion get a pass when other courses get slammed for crossovers ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Chip,

Most of the roads you mentioned get very little traffic and there's no physically crossing the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

In addition, I don't believe any of those courses have the numerous crossovers that Merion has.

Merion has road crossings and internal crossovers.

Why does Merion get a pass when other courses get slammed for crossovers ?

Just maybe Merion has high shot values. Who cares how you get there?

[john_stiles]

It is the same exception as for trees directly in play like Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, ANGC, Crystal Downs, Dead Horse Lake, etc.

[Scott Warren]

Patrick:

Only a moron would contend that Ardmore Ave, a busy thoroughfare, is not only an integral part of the course, but not responsible for  any "disjointing"

And, like clockwork, hot on the heels of your how long is yours? how many times have you played X? is your dismissal of a contrary opinion by calling its proponent a moron.

Simple fact is that the insight and familiarity you're looking to determine isn't a simple case of "more rounds wins". Plenty of people pick up as much in one visit as others see in 10, while another might make 100 visits without ever getting it.

David Elvins is someone who knows an enormous amount about golf courses, understands their components and sees things that plenty of others miss. If you explore his opinion here more constructively you might learn something (though I appreciate that being open to learning means accepting you don't already know everything about everything...).

As to the OP, I think it's understandable to forgive a failure of foresight in examples of Golden Age courses that were laid out over quiet lanes that later grew into busy thoroughfares.

Much less forgiveable would be a modern architect applying the same routing, knowing that a busy, dangerous road needed to be crossed.

A road crossing only detracts from the round if you allow it to. Much the same as planes taking off and landing near a course, a busy motorway running close to a course and creating a roar, a railway running past/through a course, noise from an adjoining house/school/factory/sporting field...

I've only visited Merion once (hung out for a while, didn't play), and the road crossings there were not an issue to someone who is familiar with Worplesdon, New Zealand, Royal Melbourne (many plays each, seeing I know that matters to you) and accepts those Golden Age road crossings for what they are.

It would seem to me that your issue is not with the roads as such, but with the traffic. Is that a fair statement?

[Bill_McBride]

Funny, I don't recall road crossings at New Zealand at all.   Liphook, oh my!   .  Mid-Ocean, no big deal. 

So agree, traffic is the issue. 

(I was frankly glad to survive Liphook's adventure; a lady captain was not so lucky several years ago.  Has anyone ever been hit crossing a road at Merion?)

[Sam Morrow]

Who said Merion gets a pass on this?

[Adam Clayman]

Merion gets for having not one, but several crossovers in the routing ?

Other courses were admonished and some villified for having a crossover

Name them?

[Tom Culley]

Berkhamsted Golf Club in Hertfordshire has players play tee shots over a busy road on two occasions, this is probably the most dangerous thing i have seen on a course.

http://goo.gl/maps/Jdk6p   A google street view shot of the most dangerous tee shot at BGC, if you turn around, you will see where the hole plays to.

As with Merion, i imagine that this was planned when the roads were extremely quiet, therefore i find it very difficult to berate the design for this.

T.

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