Is there such a thing as a

[J_ Crisham]

I rarely walk but found Erin Hills to be a very manageable stroll. The property is so open and the land forms so interesting that I can not recall a single uncomfortable moment. If I recall we were playing a mixture of tees identified by Dan Moore to maximize enjoyment of the course.

Are you pulling my leg? The walk at EH almost killed me

There are pictures on this site of us walking.  I had a push cart and the weather was very nice. I think it may have been the last day of the season. Funny thing is that I had taken a cart at Lawsonia the day before.

Why do I envision you as John Wayne in The Quiet Man on his anguishing long march through the Irish countryside?

[Nigel Islam]

For me EH was hard from an elevated tee standpoint. Some are pretty steep, and I walk 60% of the time. Otherwise it was not too bad. I am not sure I would consider Blackwolf Run River to be a seamless walk.

[Jim Nelson]

By far the worst routing I have ever experienced is El Dorado in Baja.  To be fair, the new owner (Discovery Land I think) removed a couple of the holes along the ocean and converted them into lots.  I had no idea where I was on the course and only the caddy could keep me headed in the right direction.  There is one hole which ends up at the ocean where there is a taco hut, then you turn around and take the cart back up the hill to continue.  Not a chance you could walk this course and survive.  They make up for it with the Aid Stations stocked ample food and local beverages. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nelson,, et. al.,

You can't cite the "disconnect" or lack/loss of natural continuity as a design flaw at the courses you've mentioned and at the same time declare Merion as one of the greatest golf courses of all time.

Merion has the same disconnects, the same disorientation that you've described, and, it happens on both the front and back nine.

So, should Merion be declared a poorly routed golf course by your standards ?  By the fact that you can get lost in the rotation by going from one green to the wrong tee ?  On more than one occassion ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jack,

If you 'walk' EH from the tips (as I just did) using the google measuring tool and follow the footpaths (easy to see on the map), not the ball flight, you'll find that the total is ca. 10,634 yards. That's 6.04 miles, not 9. The walk is about 2400 yards longer than the courswe yardage of 7823 from the tips.

You need to tell Rich Tock that he's adding a few miles onto his estimate.   

p.s The 10,634 yards includes the walk to and from the parking lot.   

[Phil McDade]

Phil:

Two quick questions:

1.  Was the current 9th (originally the bye hole) added after the course was built?  My first play was with the Dell hole and the current 9th as the "betting" hole, and I had no issues with the transitions from 8G to 9T and from 9G to halfway house to 10T.

2.  Curious as to where you think the course lacks flow?  I can understand how the backtrack after 4, the transfer from 7 to 8 and the break at the turn can make the end of the front nine seem a little jagged.  But I find the start to be quite strong, and the same stands for the run from 11 tee all the way through the end.

Sven

Sven:

My understanding is that the current 9th -- the old betting hole -- was original to the course (with some speculation that it was built if the USGA thought the Dell par 3 too gimicky, and thus a replacement hole was added on to the routing. Remember, this was a course that from its very initial development was aimed at national championships of the sort it has and will be hosting.)

The walk from the original 9th green -- current 8th -- to the 10th tee (still the same as it was under the original routing) must be 200 yards. Sure, there's a halfway house halfway there to "ease" the transition, but isn't that a gimmick, when it comes down to it?

In truth, my issues with transitions from green to tee are more focused on the front nine, and it does get better once you get to 11 green. But the walk from 10 green to 11 tee is a hike, if you want to give 11 any teeth at all (easiest hole on the course), because using the back tees is the only way to give that hole much substance (and I mean this in terms of US Open play, but also for the scratch/low handicapper as well). Granted, that walk is longer now with the shorter 10th, because the original green on 10 is no more. Still, it's a hike. And I'm not a big fan of the transition from 17 to 18 -- again, not intuitive; you "feel" as if walking off that green you should head to what is the 8th tee, instead of the abrupt right turn to the 18th tee.

[Sven Nilsen]

Jack,

If you 'walk' EH from the tips (as I just did) using the google measuring tool and follow the footpaths (easy to see on the map), not the ball flight, you'll find that the total is ca. 10,634 yards. That's 6.04 miles, not 9. The walk is about 2400 yards longer than the courswe yardage of 7823 from the tips.

You need to tell Rich Tock that he's adding a few miles onto his estimate.   

p.s The 10,634 yards includes the walk to and from the parking lot.   

I see the issue, the Bev has valet parking.

[Phil McDade]

I see the issue, the Bev has valet parking.

Funny you mention the Bev -- an exquisite lesson in proper routing (by the master, of course -- Ross). First (only!) time I played it, it was a great lesson in how holes transition from one to another, with short walks from greens to tees, and obvious and short routes to them. The benefits of a compact site! (Seriously -- I think the broad canvas of Erin Hills may have worked against the designers in terms of routing. I think they found a bunch of good holes out there -- but it's a collection of 18 holes, not a seamless whole. It's more akin to a greatest hits LP of the Beatles compared to Sgt. Pepper's.

[Nigel Islam]

Jim Nelson,, et. al.,

You can't cite the "disconnect" or lack/loss of natural continuity as a design flaw at the courses you've mentioned and at the same time declare Merion as one of the greatest golf courses of all time.

Merion has the same disconnects, the same disorientation that you've described, and, it happens on both the front and back nine.

So, should Merion be declared a poorly routed golf course by your standards ?  By the fact that you can get lost in the rotation by going from one green to the wrong tee ?  On more than one occassion ?

I've never played Merion, but there are certain subtle hints that well routed courses have that suggest where the next tee is. I don't have the same pedigree when it comes to great courses as most on this board, but I use google maps a lot. I just try to figure out the routing. You would be surprised how easy it is to do on the courses profiled on GCA, but how hard it is to do on run of the mill local tracks.

[J_ Crisham]

Jack,

If you 'walk' EH from the tips (as I just did) using the google measuring tool and follow the footpaths (easy to see on the map), not the ball flight, you'll find that the total is ca. 10,634 yards. That's 6.04 miles, not 9. The walk is about 2400 yards longer than the courswe yardage of 7823 from the tips.

You need to tell Rich Tock that he's adding a few miles onto his estimate.  

p.s The 10,634 yards includes the walk to and from the parking lot.  

I see the issue, the Bev has valet parking.

Sven,  you've proven your point regarding the yardage- no need to be a smartass.  Whether my club has valet parking or not should not be of relevance to this discussion. Does your club not have a valet service?

[Sven Nilsen]

I see the issue, the Bev has valet parking.

Funny you mention the Bev -- an exquisite lesson in proper routing (by the master, of course -- Ross). First (only!) time I played it, it was a great lesson in how holes transition from one to another, with short walks from greens to tees, and obvious and short routes to them. The benefits of a compact site! (Seriously -- I think the broad canvas of Erin Hills may have worked against the designers in terms of routing. I think they found a bunch of good holes out there -- but it's a collection of 18 holes, not a seamless whole. It's more akin to a greatest hits LP of the Beatles compared to Sgt. Pepper's.

The bev has one glitch, and it's not the tunnel.

I think you made a good point about the size of the canvas.  EH is a sprawling course.  But it was more coherent before the changes.

To spread the wealth on courses discussed, what are the thoughts on the routing of Harbour Town?

[Sven Nilsen]

Jack,

If you 'walk' EH from the tips (as I just did) using the google measuring tool and follow the footpaths (easy to see on the map), not the ball flight, you'll find that the total is ca. 10,634 yards. That's 6.04 miles, not 9. The walk is about 2400 yards longer than the courswe yardage of 7823 from the tips.

You need to tell Rich Tock that he's adding a few miles onto his estimate.   

p.s The 10,634 yards includes the walk to and from the parking lot.   

I see the issue, the Bev has valet parking.

Sven,  you've proven your point regarding the yardage- no need to be a smartass.  Whether my club has valet parking or not should be of relevance to this discussion. Does your club not have a valet service?

Jack:

Relax, it was a joke and certainly wasn't meant to offend. 

Sven

[Mark Saltzman]

There has to be more to determining the quality of a routing than the green to tee walks and the obviousness of the location of the next tee.

[Sean_A]

Jack,

If you 'walk' EH from the tips (as I just did) using the google measuring tool and follow the footpaths (easy to see on the map), not the ball flight, you'll find that the total is ca. 10,634 yards. That's 6.04 miles, not 9. The walk is about 2400 yards longer than the courswe yardage of 7823 from the tips.

You need to tell Rich Tock that he's adding a few miles onto his estimate.   

p.s The 10,634 yards includes the walk to and from the parking lot.   

No wonder people are bitching.  What is the walk like from normal tees - say 6500 - from house to house?

Ciao

[Bill Gayne]

The Old Course routing could be viewed as pedestrian and simplistic for a course ranked in the World's top ten. Straight out then go in a small circle with a series of crossovers and straight back.

It is also could be viewed as part of the genius of the Old Course and it can be played in reverse.

Would Augusta National be a top ten in the World course without the nines reversed? I don't think so.

[Jud_T]

Jack,

If you 'walk' EH from the tips (as I just did) using the google measuring tool and follow the footpaths (easy to see on the map), not the ball flight, you'll find that the total is ca. 10,634 yards. That's 6.04 miles, not 9. The walk is about 2400 yards longer than the courswe yardage of 7823 from the tips.

You need to tell Rich Tock that he's adding a few miles onto his estimate.  

p.s The 10,634 yards includes the walk to and from the parking lot.  

No wonder people are bitching.  What is the walk like from normal tees - say 6500 - from house to house?

Ciao

Sean,

There are some pretty significant elevation changes as well.  It's walking only and pull carts aren't permitted.  Of course you can take a caddie for $50 plus the recommended tip of $45.  So you'll definitely work up a sweat.  The good news is that your pocket will be $295 lighter.  Still a good value compared to Whistling Straights down the road where caddies are required and which will set you back a cool $455 all in but is a slightly easier walk.  Bedpost notching is tough work but somebody's got to do it...

[Nigel Islam]

The walk from the parking lot to the first tee and from 18 to the lot at EH is one of the longest I have done. Maybe that needs to put into the numbers.

[Jim Nelson]

Jim Nelson,, et. al.,

You can't cite the "disconnect" or lack/loss of natural continuity as a design flaw at the courses you've mentioned and at the same time declare Merion as one of the greatest golf courses of all time.

Merion has the same disconnects, the same disorientation that you've described, and, it happens on both the front and back nine.

So, should Merion be declared a poorly routed golf course by your standards ?  By the fact that you can get lost in the rotation by going from one green to the wrong tee ?  On more than one occassion ?

I'm guessing your comment is hypothetical, as I'm pretty sure I never called Merion one of the greatest...  I did play it a couple of years ago with a member, enjoyed the course, marveled at it compact site, and yes, remember asking a few times "which way do we go".  But I guess this falls into the category of "it's only a blind shot once" category.  Merion is very walkable, an obvious statement.  I can guarantee you that nobody ever walks El Dorado and even it a cart, you feel like you are traveling huge distances between holes, backtracking etc. 

A couple of other examples that come to mind are in my corner of the desert, Cascada and Wolf Creek.  MIles and miles and miles of cart paths thru terrain that really probably shouldn't be a golf course.  As the cart driver, you have to stay on your toes with the caddy constantly giving directions every time you come to an intersection of which there are many.  I have player there at least 6 times and I would still get lost. 

[Phil McDade]

There has to be more to determining the quality of a routing than the green to tee walks and the obviousness of the location of the next tee.

Mark:

I'd agree; routing of course is far more important in finding quality holes, and finding a variety of quality holes. The best courses I've seen in this regard are ones in which the routing yields both quality and variety, and in addition feels akin to a pleasant "walk in the park." Not that that walk shouldn't be vigorous; some very good routings on courses move over rugged terrain (aerials of Augusta National suggest this, as do reports of places like Ballyneal or Sand Hills). But the walk along the way should feel natural and intuitive -- that it makes perfect sense that this would be the place to go (or, in golfing terms, the next hole to play).

The best example I can think of to contrast EHills is Milwaukee CC, where the routing yields some really good holes over quite good terrain (the downhill tee shot of #1 right next to the clubhouse, the subtly rising par 3 4th, the excellent sequence of 8-9-10 over some of the most interesting terrain there, the "river" holes on the back nine, and the tremendous finish of the long par 3 17th and stout par 4 18th.) Importantly, all of the holes really do seem to flow from one to the next -- there is only one slight walkback (from 1 green to 2 tee, obvious when walking down 1 fairway to the green), and one crossover in which the player crosses one tee to get to another (players walk around the 2nd tee from the 16th green to get to the 17th tee -- and it's a short walk; the 17th tee sits right next to the 2nd tee a few feet away.) Even transitions from one section of the course to another (you walk across the course's entrance road to get from 4 green to 5 tee) and the transitions over the river are quite obvious and actually enjoyable, even though they are some of the longer walks, because Alison placed tees next to greens and then asked the player to hit over the river.

In short, the routing at Milwaukee CC yields both solid and interesting holes, and a pleasant journey along the way. EHills' routing yields alot of good holes, and some truly excellent ones, but what I'd characterize as a disjointed "walk." Thus, in my mind, the routing is not as good as what you'd find at Milwaukee CC.

[Mike McGuire]

Sven;

The current 9th at EH was ther from the beginning.

In the original plan it was the 19th hole.

When they switched 9 and 18 it became messy.

[Andy Troeger]

I'm with Mark in thinking that this thread has focused way too much on green-to-tee walks and especially on the obviousness of the next tee. My old home course was built in the 20's I think and was very compact but there were a few places where you could walk to the wrong tee if you didn't know where you were going. It wasn't a problem until the course thought that "hole signs' were silly and put plates in the ground instead. As a private club I guess it wasn't an issue 99% of the time, but trying to run a high school tournament shotgun start with a bunch of kids that weren't familiar with the course (or logic in some cases) could be a challenge.

While I agree that Milwaukee CC is a nice routing with good hole variety and a comfortable walk, I'm not convinced by the concept that you should play golf holes in a way that's natural or intuitive. I like hiking well enough, but I've never gone on a hike that even remotely approached a golf course routing except maybe the basic "out-and-back" or "loop" designs. Even using Phil's example at MCC you wouldn't keep walking  back and forth on somewhat parallel holes as you play from 5-10--you would walk toward the river most likely. Yet that stretch works because the holes are interesting and varied--and I guess that's my point. From my perspective to call a routing good it MUST have interesting holes with good variety. Walkability is certainly important but a couple long or odd transitions can be totally worth it if the holes are of high quality. Without interesting holes, the routing is doomed from the start.

Part of the challenge is that pretty much all of the courses we discuss here have quality holes, so to have a routing discussion we start picking at transitions and some details that separate the best from the great from the good, etc. I would argue though that the placement of the holes (mixing short/long, easy/hard, etc.) is far more critical to a good flow than whether you might have to walk backwards a few times to get where you need to go.

[Adam Clayman]

I am not sure I would consider Blackwolf Run River to be a seamless walk.

Originally designed, it was.

[Nigel Islam]

I am not sure I would consider Blackwolf Run River to be a seamless walk.

Originally designed, it was.

I was thinking of 4 to 5 and 13 to 14. How did they go before they combined the courses?

[Jim_Kennedy]

The total yardage of the walks from the center of the previous green to the middle of the back tee area:

Pine Valley                                       -927
Sand Hills                                        -982
Cypress Point                                  -1025
Plainfield                                         -1033
Yale                                                -1275
Shinnecock Hills                               -1320
Muirfield Village                               -1573
Erin Hills                                         -1750

Meaningless, but it's been a quiet Saturday.        

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

In fairness, you have to consider that courses that host PGA Tour/USGA Opens have had their back tees extended considerably.

Even Pine Valley has lengthened a number of holes, most notably, # 4, 7, 14, 15, 16  and 18 and to a lesser degree # 12.


The total yardage of the walks from the center of the previous green to the middle of the back tee area:

Pine Valley                                       -927
Sand Hills                                        -982
Cypress Point                                  -1025
Plainfield                                         -1033
Yale                                                -1275
Shinnecock Hills                               -1320
Muirfield Village                               -1573
Erin Hills                                         -1750

Meaningless, but it's been a quiet Saturday.