Is there such a thing as a

[Jim_Kennedy]

 Erin Hills is about 7800 yards of golf course from the tip, but as Jack mentioned, it's a 15,840 yard walk. A very nice older course I'm familiar with is 6,400 yards long, but around 7,400 yards to walk.



What is the maximum excess yards of walking to give a course a bad routing rap?
 

[Nigel Islam]

Patrick:

I think Erin Hills suffers from some poor routing decisions -- and by that I don't mean the individual hole corridors (some of which are among the best and coolest I've seen) or the holes themselves (several of which are very good). But the transitions between greens and tees are often awkward, and not intuitive -- when I first walked it a few years ago, starting at 1 and trying to finish on 18, I got lost and ended up walking down a fairway that I thought was on the front nine, only to realize I was on #17. That to me is a sign of poor routing. Part of the reason for this, I think, is that Erin Hills was built (and modified ) as a championship course open to public play, and one that has great elasticity in its design -- one of the course's strengths, I'd argue, for top-level play. But it makes for an overall routing that is -- at times -- quite poor, i.e., long walks to tees from previous greens, not-intuitive transitions between greens and tees, a somewhat un-natural feel to how the course should be walked. See this thread for a look at the course and routing issues:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45966.0.html

Phil,  Great call on Erin Hills- A fellow GCAer and I walked my  first time here carrying our own bags. Big mistake- it is 9 miles of walking versus a typical 5 mile walk for 18 holes. Hard to believe given the blank canvas to start with the final product could not be better. For the record I have played both pre and post reno- it still is mediocre IMO.

I find the routing at Erin to be the worst part of the course too. I liked it better than you, but also did the 9 mile hike for my second 18 of the day. My buddy was in such a foul mood by the 12th hole I was about to leave him in Wisconsin. Of course then I remembered it was me who made the tee times.

[Nigel Islam]

I have noticed that MacKenzie normally, but not always, routed perpendicular to the contours, starting high, hitting to a low and back up to the green (Augusta, Crystal Downs). Dye routes more with the contours, with lows between tee landing and green areas. As green slopes have gotten softer, it becomes more difficult to see the green surface when using MacKenzie's philosophy, as the golfer is below the green and looking up, explaining many of the blind views to the green surfaces at Augusta. Always many exceptions and possibilities to this generalization. Strategic views to portions of greens depending on which side of the fairway always add interest and variety.

Tim,
Do you think that is because as a general rule Dye moved more earth than Mackenzie so he had these options available? Also you would know better than I, but isn't one of Pete's goals to fool the tour level player with visuals?

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

I think Erin Hills suffers from some poor routing decisions -- and by that I don't mean the individual hole corridors (some of which are among the best and coolest I've seen) or the holes themselves (several of which are very good). But the transitions between greens and tees are often awkward, and not intuitive -- when I first walked it a few years ago, starting at 1 and trying to finish on 18, I got lost and ended up walking down a fairway that I thought was on the front nine, only to realize I was on #17. That to me is a sign of poor routing. Part of the reason for this, I think, is that Erin Hills was built (and modified ) as a championship course open to public play, and one that has great elasticity in its design -- one of the course's strengths, I'd argue, for top-level play. But it makes for an overall routing that is -- at times -- quite poor, i.e., long walks to tees from previous greens, not-intuitive transitions between greens and tees, a somewhat un-natural feel to how the course should be walked. See this thread for a look at the course and routing issues:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45966.0.html

Phil,  Great call on Erin Hills- A fellow GCAer and I walked my  first time here carrying our own bags. Big mistake- it is 9 miles of walking versus a typical 5 mile walk for 18 holes. Hard to believe given the blank canvas to start with the final product could not be better. For the record I have played both pre and post reno- it still is mediocre IMO.

Jack:

I've always been curious about the routing of Erin Hills, because the canvas they had to work with was so fast and interesting, with seemingly multiple ways to route it (there are some threads floating around GCA that look at this very issue...). One speculative thought I've long had is that the original designers found some really neat holes -- the 2nd with its tiny pushed-up green, the obvious corridors of the 3rd and 4th holes, the NLE Dell (formerly the 7th, and a real favorite of Whitten), and the spectacular 12th (and maybe even the 15th) -- and stuck with those holes first and foremost, and then figured out a way to route the rest of the course to take them into account.

I would add that I do like the course, as a collection of interesting holes, and of a type that's rarely found on an inland course in these parts of the states. But as a work of routing, I think it's not nearly as good.

[Tim Liddy]

Nigel,

Mr. Dye not wanting to help the tour player. I have never heard of it? Mr. Dye does a few things to make distance perception more difficult. His most beautiful, in my mind, is when he takes everything away from behind the green, making the approach distance shot distance imperceptible. Many times it makes for great long views over the ravine, over the golf course, out to the ocean, etc.

In terms of earthwork, like many of the great golden age architects, Mr. Dye moves enough earth to make everything tie into its surroundings. One of the important distinctions you get when the architect is on site the majority of the time during construction. Hard to achieve on paper, especially when budget and time is limited. Further, Mr. Dye is a master at developing contrast with earthwork; one of his greatest gifts. By contrast, I mean when to steepen up a slope so a golfer has a "face" or contour to hit or to tack around. I love watching him in the field working on this aspect of design. It normally is a brilliant process to observe.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm not surre it qualifies as a poor routing but Inverness is certainly unimaginative. There are a lot of straight holes that go back and forth in the same direction.

Actually I think Inverness is a very very good routing.  It's a very tight site which forces a lot of parallel holes, yet the holes hit the topo in different ways to create a lot of variety.  The 1st and 10th are a great example right out of the gate.

Tom, I agree that the terrain helps the course but don't you think he could have turned some holes a bit or routed them in different directions?

[Sven Nilsen]

Erin Hills is about 7800 yards of golf course from the tip, but as Jack mentioned, it's a 15,840 yard walk. A very nice older course I'm familiar with is 6,400 yards long, but around 7,400 yards to walk.



What is the maximum excess yards of walking to give a course a bad routing rap?
 

I think the additional yardage at Erin Hills has been a bit overstated in this thread.  Here are the individual hole transitions:

Start with the walk to the first tee, which is not that bad (its right off the practice putting green).  The walk from 1T to the 1st fairway is a little bit of a roundabout, but its not that far off a direct line.

1G-2T - a 40 or 50 yard walk back to the 2nd tee, but all in all not egregious, especially since you can leave your bag.
2G-3T - a short uphill climb to the 3rd tee, but nothing unduly taxing (I believe there are new back tees to the left of 2nd green which make the commute even shorter and take out the hill climb).
3G-4T - another short climb, and certainly nothing to complain about.
4G-5T - the worst backtrack on the course, brought about by the removal of the old green, this one I'll concede.
5G-6T - a lovely transition
6G-7T - with the removal of the dell hole, the new par 5 7th tees are a short walk from the 6th green (less than 40 yards).
7G-8T - you have to navigate the most confusing crossroad on the course, and it is perhaps a 100-150 yard walk.
8G-9T - 9th tees are just off the 8th green
9G-10T - a 100 yard walk from green to tee, but its level.
10G-11T - a bit of a trek created by the removal of the old green, chalk this one up to tinkering, not the original plan.
11G-12T - a quick jaunt to the right of the green, certainly nothing out of the ordinary.
12G-13T - another easy transition.
13G-14T - this one gets a little wierd depending on what tees you are playing, but nothing outrageous.
14G-15T - a particular favorite of mine, with the tees perched above the 14th green offering a view of the hole you just played and the hole to be battled next.
15G-16T - a very manageable walk.
16G-17T - with the back tees just next to the 16th green, this an easy one.
17G-18T - actually not as bad as most think.

In general, the walks from tee to fairway are direct with very few obstacles that need to be navigated.  The major issues (4 to 5 and 10 to 11) are the result of the recent changes to the course.  If blame is to be laid, its that those responsible for the renovations did not do enough to take into account the effect their changes would have on the walking golfer.  Another situation where daily play lost out to the once in a lifetime experience of hosting a major.

For the first timer, the navigation process may be a bit daunting (knowing where the 2nd tee is, how to get from 7 to 8 and perhaps one or two other minor mysteries).  But if you've played it once, unless you lack an internal compass and any bit of memory, there should be no reason not to be able to get around the property in a highly efficient manner, unless, that is, you're spraying the ball from one side of the fairway to the other.

I've played the course carrying my own bag in less than 3 hours with the occasional wait for other players.  Its not that bad.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat you need to leave New York and come to Indiana &Kentucky if you want to see poor routing. My definition is if you have to wonder where the next hole is more than once a round and back track then the course is likely not routed well. I play a lot of new courses just for the experience, and good routing does stand out as much as poor routing. Most modern architects do a decent job, but the locally built courses tend to be an experience.

I was playing in a convention golf outing years ago in Indianapolis.  I forget the name of the course, a fairly traditional course.  We got lost and skipped three holes.

[Nigel Islam]

Pat you need to leave New York and come to Indiana &Kentucky if you want to see poor routing. My definition is if you have to wonder where the next hole is more than once a round and back track then the course is likely not routed well. I play a lot of new courses just for the experience, and good routing does stand out as much as poor routing. Most modern architects do a decent job, but the locally built courses tend to be an experience.

I was playing in a convention golf outing years ago in Indianapolis.  I forget the name of the course, a fairly traditional course.  We got lost and skipped three holes.

Where in the city was it?

[Joe Bausch]

Erin Hills is about 7800 yards of golf course from the tip, but as Jack mentioned, it's a 15,840 yard walk. A very nice older course I'm familiar with is 6,400 yards long, but around 7,400 yards to walk.



What is the maximum excess yards of walking to give a course a bad routing rap?
 

I think the additional yardage at Erin Hills has been a bit overstated in this thread.  Here are the individual hole transitions:

Start with the walk to the first tee, which is not that bad (its right off the practice putting green).  The walk from 1T to the 1st fairway is a little bit of a roundabout, but its not that far off a direct line.

1G-2T - a 40 or 50 yard walk back to the 2nd tee, but all in all not egregious, especially since you can leave your bag.
2G-3T - a short uphill climb to the 3rd tee, but nothing unduly taxing (I believe there are new back tees to the left of 2nd green which make the commute even shorter and take out the hill climb).
3G-4T - another short climb, and certainly nothing to complain about.
4G-5T - the worst backtrack on the course, brought about by the removal of the old green, this one I'll concede.
5G-6T - a lovely transition
6G-7T - with the removal of the dell hole, the new par 5 7th tees are a short walk from the 6th green (less than 40 yards).
7G-8T - you have to navigate the most confusing crossroad on the course, and it is perhaps a 100-150 yard walk.
8G-9T - 9th tees are just off the 8th green
9G-10T - a 100 yard walk from green to tee, but its level.
10G-11T - a bit of a trek created by the removal of the old green, chalk this one up to tinkering, not the original plan.
11G-12T - a quick jaunt to the right of the green, certainly nothing out of the ordinary.
12G-13T - another easy transition.
13G-14T - this one gets a little wierd depending on what tees you are playing, but nothing outrageous.
14G-15T - a particular favorite of mine, with the tees perched above the 14th green offering a view of the hole you just played and the hole to be battled next.
15G-16T - a very manageable walk.
16G-17T - with the back tees just next to the 16th green, this an easy one.
17G-18T - actually not as bad as most think.

In general, the walks from tee to fairway are direct with very few obstacles that need to be navigated.  The major issues (4 to 5 and 10 to 11) are the result of the recent changes to the course.  If blame is to be laid, its that those responsible for the renovations did not do enough to take into account the effect their changes would have on the walking golfer.  Another situation where daily play lost out to the once in a lifetime experience of hosting a major.

For the first timer, the navigation process may be a bit daunting (knowing where the 2nd tee is, how to get from 7 to 8 and perhaps one or two other minor mysteries).  But if you've played it once, unless you lack an internal compass and any bit of memory, there should be no reason not to be able to get around the property in a highly efficient manner, unless, that is, you're spraying the ball from one side of the fairway to the other.

I've played the course carrying my own bag in less than 3 hours with the occasional wait for other players.  Its not that bad.

Thank you Sven.

Some of the distances mentioned in this thread are inflated, perhaps big time, IMHO.

[corey miller]

A nine mile walk on a golf course seems a little excessive though anything is preferable to taking a cart-ride between holes ala Hudson National and Bandon Trails.

[Jason Thurman]

I'll agree with others that there is no way Erin Hills has as much yardage of transitions as it does of hole corridors. It's a difficult walk thanks to the terrain and overall length of the course, but I didn't find the transitions to be too long at all.

Bad routings can be tough to judge because so many properties have restrictions we might not know about. I played a course in central Iowa once that had a front nine with about as much transition yardage as hole yardage. It was ridiculous, but it was also in a housing development and I'm sure the intent was to surround the transitions with homes. It's just the reality of some developments, and not always a flat out bad routing.

[Sean_A]

Erin Hills is about 7800 yards of golf course from the tip, but as Jack mentioned, it's a 15,840 yard walk. A very nice older course I'm familiar with is 6,400 yards long, but around 7,400 yards to walk.



What is the maximum excess yards of walking to give a course a bad routing rap?
 

I think the additional yardage at Erin Hills has been a bit overstated in this thread.  Here are the individual hole transitions:

Start with the walk to the first tee, which is not that bad (its right off the practice putting green).  The walk from 1T to the 1st fairway is a little bit of a roundabout, but its not that far off a direct line.

1G-2T - a 40 or 50 yard walk back to the 2nd tee, but all in all not egregious, especially since you can leave your bag.
2G-3T - a short uphill climb to the 3rd tee, but nothing unduly taxing (I believe there are new back tees to the left of 2nd green which make the commute even shorter and take out the hill climb).
3G-4T - another short climb, and certainly nothing to complain about.
4G-5T - the worst backtrack on the course, brought about by the removal of the old green, this one I'll concede.
5G-6T - a lovely transition
6G-7T - with the removal of the dell hole, the new par 5 7th tees are a short walk from the 6th green (less than 40 yards).
7G-8T - you have to navigate the most confusing crossroad on the course, and it is perhaps a 100-150 yard walk.
8G-9T - 9th tees are just off the 8th green
9G-10T - a 100 yard walk from green to tee, but its level.
10G-11T - a bit of a trek created by the removal of the old green, chalk this one up to tinkering, not the original plan.
11G-12T - a quick jaunt to the right of the green, certainly nothing out of the ordinary.
12G-13T - another easy transition.
13G-14T - this one gets a little wierd depending on what tees you are playing, but nothing outrageous.
14G-15T - a particular favorite of mine, with the tees perched above the 14th green offering a view of the hole you just played and the hole to be battled next.
15G-16T - a very manageable walk.
16G-17T - with the back tees just next to the 16th green, this an easy one.
17G-18T - actually not as bad as most think.

In general, the walks from tee to fairway are direct with very few obstacles that need to be navigated.  The major issues (4 to 5 and 10 to 11) are the result of the recent changes to the course.  If blame is to be laid, its that those responsible for the renovations did not do enough to take into account the effect their changes would have on the walking golfer.  Another situation where daily play lost out to the once in a lifetime experience of hosting a major.

For the first timer, the navigation process may be a bit daunting (knowing where the 2nd tee is, how to get from 7 to 8 and perhaps one or two other minor mysteries).  But if you've played it once, unless you lack an internal compass and any bit of memory, there should be no reason not to be able to get around the property in a highly efficient manner, unless, that is, you're spraying the ball from one side of the fairway to the other.

I've played the course carrying my own bag in less than 3 hours with the occasional wait for other players.  Its not that bad.

Thank you Sven.

Some of the distances mentioned in this thread are inflated, perhaps big time, IMHO.

If people are complaining about the extra walking it may be because

1. The holes aren't worth the walk
2. Even if the transitions are not crazy long on paper, its more than many are used to
3. Some may wonder why perfectly fine land is skipped in favour of other land
4. The course may a brutal walk which isn't helped by the transitions
OR
4. Its simply a perception issue - not to be taken lightly just the same

I don't know Erin Hills, but I am very intolerant of added journeys.  Many think my distaste for Tobacco Road's walk is a bit harsh, but thats how I feel.  Its only the walk keeping me from calling it great.  

Still, I am hesitant to be overly critical of a routing because of the walk.  I have long thought that mediocre courses can have great routings where the absolute most was gotten out of a property.  The thing is, I am not learned enough to know when this is or isn't the case.  However, what I can comment on is the walk, rhythm and flow of a course and the quality of the terrain and turf.  Its hard for a course to be an awkward walk and still be a great course.  A lot of other things have to be spot on to get away it.  Tobacco Road comes damn close.  I think Kiawah is a less than ideal walk (maybe not quite awkward though) and this may be the only course like this I think is great.

Ciao  

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

I'll agree with others that there is no way Erin Hills has as much yardage of transitions as it does of hole corridors. It's a difficult walk thanks to the terrain and overall length of the course, but I didn't find the transitions to be too long at all....bad routings can be tough to judge because so many properties have restrictions we might not know about.

Jason and others:

But EH had none of those restrictions; it had a huge canvas -- 500 some acres? with no housing or bordering infrastructure -- upon which to build a single 18-hole golf course. And some of the transitions that Sven downplays make it a course -- regardless of the difficulty of the walk (always something folks will disagree about) -- that really doesn't "flow" very well, with a few exceptions. I understand that some of this is due to renovations since its initial iteration, but (to cite one example) the 8th-green-to-9th-tee transition that Sven finds no quarter with wasn't part of the original routing, either. To me, the issue isn't whether the overall walk is difficult or not, or whether the transitions are level or not -- it's whether the golfer, immediately following completion of one hole, has a good sense of where the next tee is. EH fails that test pretty frequently -- enough to make it a course that I'd argue is a case of "poor routing."

[Bill_McBride]

Pat you need to leave New York and come to Indiana &Kentucky if you want to see poor routing. My definition is if you have to wonder where the next hole is more than once a round and back track then the course is likely not routed well. I play a lot of new courses just for the experience, and good routing does stand out as much as poor routing. Most modern architects do a decent job, but the locally built courses tend to be an experience.

I was playing in a convention golf outing years ago in Indianapolis.  I forget the name of the course, a fairly traditional course.  We got lost and skipped three holes.

Where in the city was it?

Not too far out. 

[Matthew Sander]

The major issues (4 to 5 and 10 to 11) are the result of the recent changes to the course.  If blame is to be laid, its that those responsible for the renovations did not do enough to take into account the effect their changes would have on the walking golfer.  Another situation where daily play lost out to the once in a lifetime experience of hosting a major.

A troubling statement considering EH was built to be and still operates as a walking only course.

[Sven Nilsen]

The major issues (4 to 5 and 10 to 11) are the result of the recent changes to the course.  If blame is to be laid, its that those responsible for the renovations did not do enough to take into account the effect their changes would have on the walking golfer.  Another situation where daily play lost out to the once in a lifetime experience of hosting a major.

A troubling statement considering EH was built to be and still operates as a walking only course.

They don't show the walks on national tv.

[J_ Crisham]

Erin Hills is about 7800 yards of golf course from the tip, but as Jack mentioned, it's a 15,840 yard walk. A very nice older course I'm familiar with is 6,400 yards long, but around 7,400 yards to walk.



What is the maximum excess yards of walking to give a course a bad routing rap?
 

I think the additional yardage at Erin Hills has been a bit overstated in this thread.  Here are the individual hole transitions:

Start with the walk to the first tee, which is not that bad (its right off the practice putting green).  The walk from 1T to the 1st fairway is a little bit of a roundabout, but its not that far off a direct line.

1G-2T - a 40 or 50 yard walk back to the 2nd tee, but all in all not egregious, especially since you can leave your bag.
2G-3T - a short uphill climb to the 3rd tee, but nothing unduly taxing (I believe there are new back tees to the left of 2nd green which make the commute even shorter and take out the hill climb).
3G-4T - another short climb, and certainly nothing to complain about.
4G-5T - the worst backtrack on the course, brought about by the removal of the old green, this one I'll concede.
5G-6T - a lovely transition
6G-7T - with the removal of the dell hole, the new par 5 7th tees are a short walk from the 6th green (less than 40 yards).
7G-8T - you have to navigate the most confusing crossroad on the course, and it is perhaps a 100-150 yard walk.
8G-9T - 9th tees are just off the 8th green
9G-10T - a 100 yard walk from green to tee, but its level.
10G-11T - a bit of a trek created by the removal of the old green, chalk this one up to tinkering, not the original plan.
11G-12T - a quick jaunt to the right of the green, certainly nothing out of the ordinary.
12G-13T - another easy transition.
13G-14T - this one gets a little wierd depending on what tees you are playing, but nothing outrageous.
14G-15T - a particular favorite of mine, with the tees perched above the 14th green offering a view of the hole you just played and the hole to be battled next.
15G-16T - a very manageable walk.
16G-17T - with the back tees just next to the 16th green, this an easy one.
17G-18T - actually not as bad as most think.

In general, the walks from tee to fairway are direct with very few obstacles that need to be navigated.  The major issues (4 to 5 and 10 to 11) are the result of the recent changes to the course.  If blame is to be laid, its that those responsible for the renovations did not do enough to take into account the effect their changes would have on the walking golfer.  Another situation where daily play lost out to the once in a lifetime experience of hosting a major.

For the first timer, the navigation process may be a bit daunting (knowing where the 2nd tee is, how to get from 7 to 8 and perhaps one or two other minor mysteries).  But if you've played it once, unless you lack an internal compass and any bit of memory, there should be no reason not to be able to get around the property in a highly efficient manner, unless, that is, you're spraying the ball from one side of the fairway to the other.

I've played the course carrying my own bag in less than 3 hours with the occasional wait for other players.  Its not that bad.

Thank you Sven.

Some of the distances mentioned in this thread are inflated, perhaps big time, IMHO.

Joe, after multiple plays and candid discussions with many fellow raters I stand by my earlier statements- EH is a very long slog- I always walk and in fact carried my clubs for 3 days at Streamsong last week- EH is no Streamsong. I played at EH with the director of golf Rich Tock last May- he said it was a 9 mile walk not me. I assume you have played it?

[Nigel Islam]

Pat you need to leave New York and come to Indiana &Kentucky if you want to see poor routing. My definition is if you have to wonder where the next hole is more than once a round and back track then the course is likely not routed well. I play a lot of new courses just for the experience, and good routing does stand out as much as poor routing. Most modern architects do a decent job, but the locally built courses tend to be an experience.

I was playing in a convention golf outing years ago in Indianapolis.  I forget the name of the course, a fairly traditional course.  We got lost and skipped three holes.

Where in the city was it?

Not too far out. 

Sounds like South Grove

[Matthew Sander]

The major issues (4 to 5 and 10 to 11) are the result of the recent changes to the course.  If blame is to be laid, its that those responsible for the renovations did not do enough to take into account the effect their changes would have on the walking golfer.  Another situation where daily play lost out to the once in a lifetime experience of hosting a major.

A troubling statement considering EH was built to be and still operates as a walking only course.

They don't show the walks on national tv.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

[Sven Nilsen]

Jack:

No offense to Rick Tock, but there is no way the walk is twice as long as the course yardage.  Take a look at an aerial map.  

Even if we were to add 200 yards per hole and played it at 7400 yards, you're only up to 6.25 miles.

It may not be the easiest walk you'll find, but its really not that bad (of course that is only my opinion, and I can appreciate that others would disagree).

Phil:

Two quick questions:

1.  Was the current 9th (originally the bye hole) added after the course was built?  My first play was with the Dell hole and the current 9th as the "betting" hole, and I had no issues with the transitions from 8G to 9T and from 9G to halfway house to 10T.

2.  Curious as to where you think the course lacks flow?  I can understand how the backtrack after 4, the transfer from 7 to 8 and the break at the turn can make the end of the front nine seem a little jagged.  But I find the start to be quite strong, and the same stands for the run from 11 tee all the way through the end.

Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

I rarely walk but found Erin Hills to be a very manageable stroll. The property is so open and the land forms so interesting that I can not recall a single uncomfortable moment. If I recall we were playing a mixture of tees identified by Dan Moore to maximize enjoyment of the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

Don't forget that Inverness today is a far cry from the original.

[J_ Crisham]

I rarely walk but found Erin Hills to be a very manageable stroll. The property is so open and the land forms so interesting that I can not recall a single uncomfortable moment. If I recall we were playing a mixture of tees identified by Dan Moore to maximize enjoyment of the course.

Are you pulling my leg? The walk at EH almost killed me

[John Kavanaugh]

I rarely walk but found Erin Hills to be a very manageable stroll. The property is so open and the land forms so interesting that I can not recall a single uncomfortable moment. If I recall we were playing a mixture of tees identified by Dan Moore to maximize enjoyment of the course.

Are you pulling my leg? The walk at EH almost killed me

There are pictures on this site of us walking.  I had a push cart and the weather was very nice. I think it may have been the last day of the season. Funny thing is that I had taken a cart at Lawsonia the day before.