[Michael George]

Tim - I liked a lot of holes at Arcadia Bluffs (2-5, 7, 10-12 and 16-17) so don't mean to bash Arcadia Bluffs as a whole.  However, I don't see any strategy on 18. 

Tee box is artificially placed on top of ridge and is wholly disconnected from the hole.  Yes, it is pretty, but very contrived.

There is no risk/reward or even any thought on where to hit your the drive.  The drive just seems to be "avoid the bunkers".  The direct line between tee and green along the right of the fairway provides no incentive as it results in a completely blind approach.  Play it left and you have a long approach shot.  I would love to know the desired line or what the architect was trying to accomplish. 

The green has 2 tiers, but nothing else going on.  You get caught up in the large incline in the green, but it really lacks any other interest. 

Again, just my opinion, but a very disappointing finish.

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

Can you also explain the following choices:

4. Pacific Dunes
13. Bandon Trails

They may be my favorite holes on each course and you picked them as the worst?

I am not a fan of the 4th at Pacific Dunes out of spite.  It is the mirror image of the 4th at Torrey Pines South which gets bashed for reasons I have never understood.  They are the exact same hole.

Isn't the 13th at Bandon Trails the one with the stupid pond.  I hate it when minimalists build ponds that look like the local muni.

[Bill_McBride]

John:

Can you also explain the following choices:

4. Pacific Dunes
13. Bandon Trails

They may be my favorite holes on each course and you picked them as the worst?

I am not a fan of the 4th at Pacific Dunes out of spite.  It is the mirror image of the 4th at Torrey Pines South which gets bashed for reasons I have never understood.  They are the exact same hole.

Isn't the 13th at Bandon Trails the one with the stupid pond.  I hate it when minimalists build ponds that look like the local muni.

Actually it's 11 with the pond. 

[Alex Miller]

John:

Can you also explain the following choices:

4. Pacific Dunes
13. Bandon Trails

They may be my favorite holes on each course and you picked them as the worst?

I am not a fan of the 4th at Pacific Dunes out of spite.  It is the mirror image of the 4th at Torrey Pines South which gets bashed for reasons I have never understood.  They are the exact same hole.

Isn't the 13th at Bandon Trails the one with the stupid pond.  I hate it when minimalists build ponds that look like the local muni.

...that's 11.

Having a bit of fun with us? It seems anything but architecture is the cause for your worst hole choices.

[John Kavanaugh]

Damn, I knew my list wasn't perfect.  I need to review my choice for 13.  Of course these choices have little to do with architecture in that I haven't even played most of them.

[Rick Shefchik]

It wouldn't be a "worst" thread without taking a shot at Hazeltine. Selecting Hazeltine's signature hole -- a really great par 4, in my opinion --  just ups the ante.

Who's next, Ron Kern going to throw a bitch fit over Purgatory being included?  It is an honor to be on this list.

This list is trolling, John, and you know it. I was giving you credit.

[John Kavanaugh]

It wouldn't be a "worst" thread without taking a shot at Hazeltine. Selecting Hazeltine's signature hole -- a really great par 4, in my opinion --  just ups the ante.

Who's next, Ron Kern going to throw a bitch fit over Purgatory being included?  It is an honor to be on this list.

This list is trolling, John, and you know it. I was giving you credit.

Sometimes people confuse interesting with trolling.  I am honestly surprised at how people question my choices here but no one was challenged when they posted their best holes.  Think about the different 16th holes on famous courses in the world and come up with a better choice.  Cypress or Pasa are indefensible.  I've never played Hazeltine so why it came to me is a mystery but as you know a gut feeling is often correct.  Just the fact you called it a signature hole makes it a nominee.

What famous 16th hole that everyone knows would you choose?  Besides TPC Sawgrass which is the obvious choice.

[Alex Miller]

It wouldn't be a "worst" thread without taking a shot at Hazeltine. Selecting Hazeltine's signature hole -- a really great par 4, in my opinion --  just ups the ante.

Who's next, Ron Kern going to throw a bitch fit over Purgatory being included?  It is an honor to be on this list.

This list is trolling, John, and you know it. I was giving you credit.

Sometimes people confuse interesting with trolling.  I am honestly surprised at how people question my choices here but no one was challenged when they posted their best holes.  Think about the different 16th holes on famous courses in the world and come up with a better choice.  Cypress or Pasa are indefensible.  I've never played Hazeltine so why it came to me is a mystery but as you know a gut feeling is often correct.  Just the fact you called it a signature hole makes it a nominee.

What famous 16th hole that everyone knows would you choose?  Besides TPC Sawgrass which is the obvious choice.

Just to be clear, Sawgrass's 16th is the reachable par 5. I don't think it's a bad hole or a clear favorite.

I liked your Hazeltine pick... 

[Rick Shefchik]

It wouldn't be a "worst" thread without taking a shot at Hazeltine. Selecting Hazeltine's signature hole -- a really great par 4, in my opinion --  just ups the ante.

Who's next, Ron Kern going to throw a bitch fit over Purgatory being included?  It is an honor to be on this list.

This list is trolling, John, and you know it. I was giving you credit.

Sometimes people confuse interesting with trolling.  I am honestly surprised at how people question my choices here but no one was challenged when they posted their best holes.  Think about the different 16th holes on famous courses in the world and come up with a better choice.  Cypress or Pasa are indefensible.  I've never played Hazeltine so why it came to me is a mystery but as you know a gut feeling is often correct.  Just the fact you called it a signature hole makes it a nominee.

What famous 16th hole that everyone knows would you choose?  Besides TPC Sawgrass which is the obvious choice.

I agree with Michael George about 16 at Bandon Trails. I hit a drive there that would have been 50 feet into Hazeltine Lake had I been playing that hole. Instead, the drive ended up in the fairway. Good holes usually demand accurate drives.

[John Kavanaugh]

It wouldn't be a "worst" thread without taking a shot at Hazeltine. Selecting Hazeltine's signature hole -- a really great par 4, in my opinion --  just ups the ante.

Who's next, Ron Kern going to throw a bitch fit over Purgatory being included?  It is an honor to be on this list.

This list is trolling, John, and you know it. I was giving you credit.

Sometimes people confuse interesting with trolling.  I am honestly surprised at how people question my choices here but no one was challenged when they posted their best holes.  Think about the different 16th holes on famous courses in the world and come up with a better choice.  Cypress or Pasa are indefensible.  I've never played Hazeltine so why it came to me is a mystery but as you know a gut feeling is often correct.  Just the fact you called it a signature hole makes it a nominee.

What famous 16th hole that everyone knows would you choose?  Besides TPC Sawgrass which is the obvious choice.

Just to be clear, Sawgrass's 16th is the reachable par 5. I don't think it's a bad hole or a clear favorite.

I liked your Hazeltine pick... 

I know the 16th at Sawgrass is not the island green par 3. I see it as the obvious choice because the hole relies far too heavily on the tree near the green for its defense. 

[John_Cullum]

Barney, since 13 has reopened,  you should consider 13 at cuscowilla.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I can only do one hole for each course.  I am fascinated by the slams the 16th at Bandon Trails is taking.  What is the world is wrong with finding your tee shot on an unreachable long uphill par 5 at a public resort?

[Rick Shefchik]

Finding it is one thing. Having it kick 75 yards back to the fairway is something else.

[Tom_Doak]

4. Tie - Pacific Dunes
5. Bethpage Black
10. Pasatiempo
11. Pinehurst #2
13. Bandon Trails

John:  For whatever it's worth, I rate the five holes you listed above as excellent holes.  Somebody or other has already defended most of them, so I won't bother here.

I know you were trying to find an example from as many top-10 courses as possible in order to generate discussion.  Sand Hills 9th has not grown on me like it has on Ari; I would possibly name it as the dullest hole at Sand Hills, but not the worst.  Augusta 6th is not a bad hole at all ... it's actually something like Sand Hills 6th ... if I had to pick a hole as the worst at Augusta I would go with the 15th.

[John Kavanaugh]

Finding it is one thing. Having it kick 75 yards back to the fairway is something else.

I have a real soft spot for that hole as I think it was where the search and rescue team found me when we started a little too late in the day to finish.  We were doing fine in the moonlight to the chagrin of those workers who wanted to go home.  Flashlights coming at you in the darkness really are just like the movies.

[John Kavanaugh]

4. Tie - Pacific Dunes
5. Bethpage Black
10. Pasatiempo
11. Pinehurst #2
13. Bandon Trails

John:  For whatever it's worth, I rate the five holes you listed above as excellent holes.  Somebody or other has already defended most of them, so I won't bother here.

I know you were trying to find an example from as many top-10 courses as possible in order to generate discussion.  Sand Hills 9th has not grown on me like it has on Ari; I would possibly name it as the dullest hole at Sand Hills, but not the worst.  Augusta 6th is not a bad hole at all ... it's actually something like Sand Hills 6th ... if I had to pick a hole as the worst at Augusta I would go with the 15th.

Ari made me feel bad about my comment on the 9th at Sand Hills.  As much as I do think it may be the only perfect course I have ever played the 9th doesn't compliment the 7th and 8th like I think it could.  I'd like a quick punch to the gut after two such fun easy holes.  The 9th is more like too little sorbet.

If the 15th at Augusta truly did destroy a fine player like Chip Beck from ever reaching his potential I gotta love it like the illicit drugs that ruined so many before him.

[Alex Miller]

4. Tie - Pacific Dunes
5. Bethpage Black
10. Pasatiempo
11. Pinehurst #2
13. Bandon Trails

John:  For whatever it's worth, I rate the five holes you listed above as excellent holes.  Somebody or other has already defended most of them, so I won't bother here.

I know you were trying to find an example from as many top-10 courses as possible in order to generate discussion.  Sand Hills 9th has not grown on me like it has on Ari; I would possibly name it as the dullest hole at Sand Hills, but not the worst.  Augusta 6th is not a bad hole at all ... it's actually something like Sand Hills 6th ... if I had to pick a hole as the worst at Augusta I would go with the 15th.

I have 7 as the worst hole ANGC, followed by the 17th. 15 had not entered my mind. Although you may still think highly of it, any reason for the pick?

[John Kavanaugh]

Alex,

Just last week my son asked me who I would have rather switched lives with, Dwight D. Eisenhower or Ronald Reagan?  We enjoy a good what if discussion.  After considering the great lives both men had the tie was broken by having a tree named after me on the 17th at Augusta.  I've never understood why people do not like that hole given the excellent approach shot it requires year after year.  Why does it make your list?

What I would like to see in real time would have been just how small the tree was back when Eisenhower played.  It looks like a monster now but has managed to grow with the game.

[Alex Miller]

Alex,

Just last week my son asked me who I would have rather switched lives with, Dwight D. Eisenhower or Ronald Reagan?  We enjoy a good what if discussion.  After considering the great lives both men had the tie was broken by having a tree named after me on the 17th at Augusta.  I've never understood why people do not like that hole given the excellent approach shot it requires year after year.  Why does it make your list?

What I would like to see in real time would have been just how small the tree was back when Eisenhower played.  It looks like a monster now but has managed to grow with the game.

Like your feelings on the tree at Sawgrass, I feel it influences the tee shot too much and perhaps unfairly so. The approach is fine, but probably in the bottom half of the holes at ANGC. I like the approach and green at 7 better, though that holes narrowness puts me off.

I bet back in the day of Eisenhower the tree made sense, the hole played wider, and the run-up approach was more utilized as well.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do not recall ever seeing a golfer in contention to win the Masters hit the Eisenhower tree.

[Alex Miller]

I do not recall ever seeing a golfer in contention to win the Masters hit the Eisenhower tree.

I feel as though I've seen it, but cannot back that up at the moment. And even if no one has HIT it, that doesn't mean there is no influence.

Outside of 7, I just don't think there's much to find wrong with ANGC. I guess 17 just doesn't do it for me, and when having to compare it to 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 (which is like a better version of 17 in many ways), 15, 16, and 18, I feel it drags down the quality of the backnine. Probably from a 10 to a 9.6.

[Will MacEwen]

I have #13 at Trails as my favourite hole at the resort, just nipping #13 at Dunes.  

I don't mind 11 with the pond.  I guess a waste area would be more forgiving, but it is pretty easy to keep the ball left and dry, even with my snap hook (LH).

[John Kavanaugh]

I love everything about Augusta except for the people on the hill at 6.  I had to fly backwards once on Southwest and it reminds me of that.

I will revise my list with 11 being Bandon Trails and the new 13th being the long par 3 at Wolf Run near Indianapolis.  I almost died there one hot summer day when I pushed my drive, it's 240 yds, and worked my way back up the hill in +100 deg heat.  Now at 53 I don't think I can even play the hole.

Revised list:

1. Purgatory
2. Riviera
3. Cuscowilla
4. Tie - Pacific Dunes/Torrey Pines South
5. Bethpage Black
6. ANGC
7. Dismal River
8. Victoria National
9. Sand Hills

10. Pasatiempo
11. Pinehurst #2  revised to Bandon Trails
12. Pebble Beach
13. Bandon Trails  revised to Wolf Run
14. Oakmont
15. Ballyneal
16. Hazeltine
17. Olympic Lake
18. Tobacco Road

[Josh Tarble]

I love everything about Augusta except for the people on the hill at 6.  I had to fly backwards once on Southwest and it reminds me of that.

I will revise my list with 11 being Bandon Trails and the new 13th being the long par 3 at Wolf Run near Indianapolis.  I almost died there one hot summer day when I pushed my drive, it's 240 yds, and worked my way back up the hill in +100 deg heat.  Now at 53 I don't think I can even play the hole.

Revised list:

1. Purgatory
2. Riviera
3. Cuscowilla
4. Tie - Pacific Dunes/Torrey Pines South
5. Bethpage Black
6. ANGC
7. Dismal River
8. Victoria National
9. Sand Hills

10. Pasatiempo
11. Pinehurst #2  revised to Bandon Trails
12. Pebble Beach
13. Bandon Trails  revised to Wolf Run
14. Oakmont
15. Ballyneal
16. Hazeltine
17. Olympic Lake
18. Tobacco Road

I don't particularly mind Purgatory #1.  I think it's a nice start, in that it's drivable with a good drive, or play to the right for a simple pitch.  Nice to have an easy opener on that course.

Keeping in the Indianapolis theme, I would switch it to Crooked Stick #1, which has to be one of the worst, most disjointed starts to a highly regarded course in the world.

[John Kavanaugh]

Josh,

Crooked Stick is a great call on number 1.  What an odd hole when compared to the rest of the course.  I might like the first at Purgatory if I thought it was drivable.  Wow.

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