Desert Forest course profile is posted

[Dan Moore]

One of the coolest things about Desert Forest is the low key, golf only, nothing is mandated atmosphere.  You want to carry your bag on Saturday morning, go ahead.  Another cool thing is how the range, putting green 1st and 10th tees, and 9th and 18th greens are all within about 100 yards of the clubhouse door.  The course is great, it’s an enjoyable walk, its well below freezing in Chicago and 76 in Carefree today; what's not to like. 

Regarding narrowness, the fairways probably average 40 yards in width, however, if you miss you are in the desert where anything goes.  Some of the narrowness is perception which is by design deceptive.  There are 3-4 holes where there is much more room than you see off the tee.  Good examples are 2, 5, 15 and 16.  I think Ran captures the challenge from the tee when he says the real trick is knowing when to back off and play for position rather than distance.  On 16 it’s a hybrid to the 70 yard wide fairway at the base of the rise and just 20-25 at the top of the hill in the driver landing zone with death to the left.

The other trick is knowing the angles of play.  The dogleg 5th is a perfect example where you can safely play 3 wood to the center of the fairway but driver will take you long under a tree or into the desert.  Play left out over the finger of desert that juts into the fairway and carry it 200 from Red's tee and you can hit driver.  On 11 which gently bends to the left the second shot requires careful thought or can be blocked out or run through the fairway on your 2nd shot.  No doubt the desert can be penal and a card wrecker so stick to match play and drive your opponent nuts by making birdie or par from the desert and shrug off the desert  doubles. 

Just as important is positioning for your approach.  The greenside bunkers may not be flashy but they are wonderfully placed.  But as Brian says the greens are where DF really shines.  The shaping was tremendous.  The short game at DF is a joy.  There is a lot of subtle internal movement that sings when the speeds are up which they usually are.  Knowing the best spot to approach is key and that only comes with experience.  I have played 20-25 times and still learn something new with each play which is the mark of a great course in my opinion.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Head and shoulders the best Desert Course I have ever played. The green complexes are so much fun you could chip and putt around any one of them for hours.  the fairway corridors are as Ran described them. The routing is just great. It still amazes me more have not copied this great design. It is the one place in the Desert I could play for life and be a happy golfer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger,

I think you'd like "Outlaw" as well.

Dan,

In 1962 golf in the desert hadn't begun it's boom, especially in the residential community golf courses and resort courses.

Do you think that Red's low to the terrain design was a function of money ?

Not that it was a shoestring project, but that it wasn't a "splashy" project, just his importation of the skills he learned from Flynn.

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks, guys.

I really enjoyed you all sharing your opinions and also WHY you have those opinions.  That makes for a better understanding of specific courses.

[Jon Schultz]

Ran what a great story.  Desert Forest is one of those gems that leaves a lasting memory of a great golf course.  Quietly recognized and honored and loved by the golf aficionado.

[Matthew Petersen]

Obviously I'd have to play it to know, but it looks about average in terms of width to me. I'm not feeling like there's tons of room, but very few of the photos looked choked. Having lived here for a while, one thing you quickly realize is that "width" in the desert isn't always a function of absolute yardage but has a lot to do with how likely a shot is to run into the desert. Hitting one way off line deep into the brush is one thing, hitting a decent drive that rolls into trouble is the type of thing that will get a lot of players moaning. Hence the containment mounding on so many desert courses. And that's exactly the complaint I have heard from the few people I know who have played there and felt it was too narrow.

[Mark Studer]

Ran- agreed that Desert Forest is a gem.   I remember playing it for the first time probably 15 years ago and then again(3 years ago) after super Karl Olson had been there opening up the playing corridors for about 4 years and WOW!!!!   The first time I played the course, I remember just missing a few fairways and being in the "junk ", only 10 or 20 feet off the fairway.  My later experience was much more enjoyable and the club deserves credit for recognizing the problem of overgrown underbrush and native plant spread onto the playing field.   I do not remember a mention of Karl Olson in your profile of Desert Forest , and after his magnificent work at The National, Karl's top rate talent and experince polished up Desert Forest for us all to appreciate.

[Bart Bradley]

Desert Forest has significantly contoured and interesting greens.  I don't think Ran's photos (despite their excellence) can show the individual quality of the putting surfaces.  I do somehow wish they had a bit more variety.  The angles and doglegs are used to terrific effect.  Many of the holes share qualities of some of Pete Dye's most interesting holes.  I wish that the fairways were a bit wider and that the edges of the fairways did not all slope toward the desert, as I would find the course more playable.  Although width is overrated for strategic discussion, it is never overrated with regards to being able to find and hit your ball.

The desert scenery is beautiful and stunning.  The holes and the course are visually arresting.  The walk sublime.

A great place to play golf in January...I look forward to returning someday soon.  I will certainly hit more 3 woods off the tee.

Bart

[David Harshbarger]

Ran, I found this to be as exhilirating a course as has been profiled, largely due to the understated nature of the course as it integrates so well with the native flora, but also to the character of the course.  I have a particular interest in this period, maybe because it so maligned, and I refuse to accept that the practitioners were blind to qualities that make golf a joy.  But, also, because the era seems to show the sleek modern sensibilities of the wider culture, the jet age, pop, the rejection of ornament.  Desert Forest looks like it captures that period through and through.

DF and Red Lawrence have jumped up my list.  Thank you.

[Sean_A]

"Although width is overrated for strategic discussion, it is never overrated with regards to being able to find and hit your ball."

Isn't being able to hit a ball the biggest part of strategy?  Its all wrapped into the same discussion. 

Ciao

[Dan Moore]

Yesterday Kevin Cahoon proved Desert Forest is not to narrow by playing his first round without losing a ball (except on the par 3 17th).

 

[Rob Rigg]

FWIW - I played round 1 and 2 at DF and did not lose a ball. I have certainly lost some since then, a lot of it depends on where you miss and by how much. With an element of luck thrown in!

My favorite thing about DF is that the course is an excellent challenge of golf from tee to green with very little let up.

Tee shots - I think there is sufficient room on the course to miss, but if you are off by 30 or 40 yards from your intended line then you will be in trouble. The key is ball placement off the tee. Pick your ideal landing area and then shape the shot for your "back up" landing area to come into play if necessary. It is challenging.

Approach shots - There are many raised greens which makes it difficult to know where the pin is and where to miss. Focus is required again on the approach shot, especially on the long par 4s. The greens are on the small side so aiming for the center is often a smart play. Usually below the hole is the optimal play.

Short Game - Expect to play a lot of chip shots and a few bunker shots if you are not hitting at the middle of the green. Sometimes landing a ball short of the hole, even just short of the green, is a really good play. The sand in the bunkers is fantastic.

Putting - This is where DF shines - The greens have a lot of subtle movement and tend to break towards Black Mountain. I had about 5 three putts my first time out at DF, which was frustrating, but after a couple of plays you get a really good feel for how the ball is going to move. 

That being said - There are a few holes where you can certainly get a stroke back - eg) 6, 7 and 9 on the front and 14, 15 and 16 on the back BUT you have to play smart. Make sure you hit the fairway, hit the right section of the green and give yourself a chance to make the putt.

As someone mentioned about another course recently - The great thing about Desert Forest is that it is "of" the land, not "on" the land. Very few desert courses have the wonderful ripples, rolls and undulations that you find at DF. The way that the fairways run up some side slopes to create "bank shots" is really cool. There are a lot of side hill lies, many of them slight, and often there is a part of the fairway you can hit at that will release the ball into the ideal sport for an approach. It is just so "thoughtfully" designed, which is rare from what I have seen of desert courses.

[MHiserman]

They do have a fantastic Asst Pro Matt Cimirele!!!

[John Shimp]

Looks and sounds like real golf to me.  A crafty players delight. A swing away with the driver players disaster.

[Jud_T]

According to Golfweek, Dave Zinkand, of C&C fame, is going to "take a fresh look at the club's tees, bunkers, greens and approaches."  Anyone know any more?  Based on what I've heard previously, any work on the greens will be of particular interest.

[Adam Clayman]

I hardly suspect the greens would be altered, other than a recapturing of some possible shrinkage.

The bunkers are worth looking at and discussing. I'm not saying they should be changed, but, it is the one aspect that requires some suspension of disbelief, to the mind's eye.

I justified their circular shape because they juxtaposed the natural beauty, thereby accentuating it.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

  As one who works at a Flynn course I am interested in those that worked with him, Lawrence being one.  Hope to see DF in person some day.  This is a great profile and really peaks my interest.  Any while the fairways are narrow we must keep in mind that Lawrence was doing something that had not been done in that environment before, he had a minimal approach and most of all was probably limited by the irrigation technology of that time.  One good thing is that the Super at DF should never have to sit in a Green Comm. meeting listening to complaints that the rough is inconsistent.   

[Jud_T]

The greens are on the small side so aiming for the center is often a smart play.

Putting - This is where DF shines - The greens have a lot of subtle movement and tend to break towards Black Mountain.

Rob,

Interesting.  Doesn't quite reconcile with this statement from the CG: "Only the large, plain greens keep it from being my favorite desert layout".  Have they lost a significant amount of green area over the years?

[ward peyronnin]

I have reviewed the course on here before and I will reiterate this course is as close to playing old Scottish links golf as any inland course I have played.

I disagree that course plays too narrow. The desert surrounding the course is generally level and not filled with huge rocks and boulders. In many places the foliage is not so dense that one can't get the ball back in play so just being off the fairway is not always as bad as others make it sound.


I think a far bigger challenge to scoring are the peaked greens and the very difficult recoveries one faces if off the green in the wrong place

[Dave McCollum]

According to Golfweek, Dave Zinkand, of C&C fame, is going to "take a fresh look at the club's tees, bunkers, greens and approaches."  Anyone know any more?  Based on what I've heard previously, any work on the greens will be of particular interest.

I sent Zink an email.  He said he’s spent a lot of time at DFGC and is very close to presenting a masterplan.  He didn’t get into the details.  Knowing Zink, he will be very respectful of Red L’s work.  He said DF provided a lot of inspiration while they were building WeKoPa.  He said they were looking at a lot of things with the emphasis leaning toward, if I understood him correctly, the approaches and around the greens.  The DF members on this board should really be the ones to comment.  I’ll just say that Dave Zinkand is a very talented and creative young man.  He’ll do a great job.

[Andy Troeger]

Thanks to a fellow GCAer I had the chance to return to Desert Forest on Wednesday afternoon for another go, at least in part due to my comments when this thread was originally created. Some comments to follow:

1. The desert is more forgiving than I remembered. I have had people tell me that the club has done some clearing and we found pretty much every desert ball that we spend the time to look for. I went in I believe four times off the tee and found all four balls and was able to play two of them. That seems to be in line with what others have said. I lost two balls trying shots that should not be tried at DF. I believe my host lost one ball.

2. The fairways are by no means wide, but I'm generally satisfied that there is room to play. I left my driver in the car because I'm not very accurate with it and played with a 3-wood or hybrid off the tee with pretty good success. Driver would be useful for length purposes about twice a round for me (#7 and #9), but I'm not sure I'd keep it in play enough to warrant carrying it around.  I generally tried to keep it in the middle of the playing corridors and was mostly successful with that strategy and laying back--my 3-wood goes about 240 which was sufficient from the regular tees. I do not think I would enjoy the course from 7,000 yards without a driver, but the tips are not designed for everyone. I most certainly feel more positive toward the width aspect than I did previously, but like many other "really hard" courses its honestly not a course that I would enjoy seeing on a regular basis. Even from the 6500 yard regular tees, the slope is 140.

3. I can understand why some of you do love the course--tee shots like the fifth require thought and execution. I would have aimed my second at the 11th well off the desired line without some local input. The seventh is a fun risk/reward hole with lots of ways to play it.  It is far more walkable than most of the other North Scottsdale clubs and the natural lay-of-the-land design certainly is appealing. The greens are not at their best currently, but when they are the greens are plenty challenging and interesting themselves.

4. Overall, the course moved up my personal list significantly on a replay (jumping 50+ courses including a number of other clubs in Scottsdale). I'm sure I still have it lower than most of the others that commented the first go around, but I'm glad to have seen the course again and hopefully I have a better understanding of what it offers.

[Tony Weiler]

Don't get me wrong, I love to walk, but is it walking only?  Sounds like a great desert course. 

[Brad Klein]

Not walking only, not for that membership, though it is a very easy walk. They have golf carts, just not any real cart paths, thank goodness, which adds to the charm and atmosphere. Cart traffic in winter tends to get steered down the fairways.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

They also have 4bagger golf carts making it possible for walking 9 and riding 9 or any combination thereof.

[jkinney]

DF is my favorite Arizona course. It is a superb design and a joy to play.