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Ran Morrissett

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Desert Forest course profile is posted
« on: January 21, 2013, 01:58:00 PM »
Understanding how good golf course design principles spread is a rewarding though never ending pursuit. As you learn more about how it emanated from the United Kingdom and became disseminated around the world, what you might have initially thought was a 100 piece puzzle morphs into a 500 piece puzzle that turns into a 1000 pieces, etc. This amplification is many faceted and includes history, social migration and technology.

Certainly, it is easy to understand why golf took root on the eastern seaboard of North America. This was the epicenter of commerce, politics and wealth in the new world and a magnet for immigrants including an army of Scottish golf pros who helped the transition of golf across the pond. As the game developed the flow of people was both ways, the British invasion (Ross, Colt, Alison, Fowler, Park, Findlay, etc.) a coterie of diligent Americans seeking greater knowledge (Macdonald, Tillinghast, Wilson, Crump, Fownes, etc.). However, the Southwest of the United States is yet another 2,000 miles from golf’s birthplace – and no golfer cared about that region in the days prior to irrigation. So, how did the best traditions of the game come to the desert?

Fortuitously, the answer lies with a man born in Westchester County who came of age at the dawn of the Golden Age of Architecture. Red Lawrence was that man and he was tutored by William Flynn during the creation of some of Toomey & Flynn’s finest designs. After spending the first 75 years (!) of his life on the east coast, and becoming a founder of the ASGCA in 1947, Lawrence settled in Arizona in 1958. He built his cornerstone design several years later at Desert Forest.

With a background fortified by the Golden Age design philosophies, this pioneer transferred the best virtues of traditional golf to a remote, seemingly inhospitable part of the country. Walking prevails at Desert Forest as does the understanding that golf at its essence is a ground game sport. Lawrence discovered, carefully preserved and then utilized the undulations of the desert floor for his composition. Holes bend and dogleg around the desert floor exploiting its natural features to create interest and strategy. There isn’t a single artificial fairway bunker and you’ll appreciate why that would be superfluous when you experience the rolls among the ninth, sixteenth and eighteenth fairways.

My favorite attributes of Flynn’s work are everywhere at Desert Forest. The course is well-routed, something that few architects have a talent for. The low profile tees, paucity of dirt moved tee to green, and the push-up greens with broad slopes that make sense with their surrounds smack of Flynn’s influence. Furthermore, the course was built economically without contrivance to hinder one’s enjoyment of the surrounds and rests peacefully upon the (irrigated) landscape. Plus, it plays like a Flynn course in that it doesn’t reveal all its secrets at once. At Desert Forest the driver isn’t automatic because of the beguiling manner in which Lawrence draped the fairways over the land and bent the playing corridors. I love that! Too many modern courses allow the golfer to pound driver after driver. For me that’s a design flaw as it enables the golfer to get in a rhythm. Pete Dye harps about taking the golfer out of his comfort zone and requiring the player to think because then he’s dead. Desert Forest is such a thinking man’s course.

Given that every living human drives it past me these days :-[, I get killed on a “bombs-away course” and much prefer the likes of Desert Forest where you feel as though you are engaged in a chess match with the architect. In this respect, Desert Forest reminds me of Merion (Flynn’s 1930 opus as opposed to 2013 US Open Merion).  Most tees require debate about which club to hit à la Merion and how to execute the challenge. Imprudent or rash tactics can lead to your undoing on any single hole but the thinking man can tack his way gracefully around the course. I have a 13 degree Tour Edge and a 15 degree deep face George Izett that I rotate in and out of my bag. They are PERFECT for Desert Forest as I can miss them straight. Apply such clubs properly and you gain the warm satisfaction of managing your game prudently. The lousy gorilla golfer gets away with any and everything at many courses  >:( these days but not at Desert Forest. The integration of high desert florae into a sophisticated design guarantees that the merits of placement outweigh brute strength.


Do you want to risk a draw around the corner to the left or be content with a 3 wood straight ahead at the 5th? The choice is yours but choose wisely. The canted right to left green is a factor to consider.

The term ‘old fashioned’ holds only positive connotations for me. You don’t associate old fashioned in connection with the Southwest (save a saloon or two  ;)) but Desert Forest has an unmistakable venerable charm. Based on photographs I’ve seen and threads within this Discussion Group, there might be ~15 courses in Arizona with grander views, deeper canyons, longer cart paths, greater drama from elevation changes, etc. yet I doubt that a single one has better golf. The Desert Forest members embrace golf as a walking sport and have maintained my favorite approach to golf, which is to say ‘less is more.’ Plenty of clubs in Arizona with their 50,000 square foot clubhouses opt for an opulent ‘more is more’ approach. How pathetic to see that brand  :P now being exported from America versus the classic forms that were imported to America from the United Kingdom during Lawrence’s formative years.

Fortunately for all, Red Lawrence understood what good golf was about. Growing old at Desert Forest would be a pleasure as a veteran could still make a fine showing against his limber grandkids. My plan was always to retire here in Southern Pines but now I am not so sure. Both the course and the club’s ethos are right up my alley.

Cheers,

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 02:28:35 PM »
Ran,

Well done!

Desert Forest, as a course and as a club, is top notch. I've played there a few times and, now that I'm full time in sunny Arizona, play Lawrence's other courses here in the Phoenix area- Wigwam Red and the Maricopa County muni now known as Tres Rios.  As an easterner from Philly, I enjoy the change of pace from the usual desert fare, not that's there is anything wrong with many of the courses here.

However, you forgot to mention my birdie on 7!!!

I like your comments about making the golfer think on the tee as to club selection. Of course, at my advancing age, even from the forward men's tees, I don't have that problem.  :)

I enjoyed the day and meeting you up close and personal.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 02:54:06 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mac Plumart

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 03:47:53 PM »
Thanks, Ran.  I'm very excited to see this course one day.  But, for now, it is great to read about it.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 06:08:06 PM »
Wow I can see why Dan Moore joined, just a shame I'll miss out on a game there next month.
Cave Nil Vino

Cory Lewis

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 07:14:53 PM »
My favorite course in the desert!  Thanks so much Ran.
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Dave McCollum

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2013, 09:19:32 PM »
Ran, that was lyrical.  You are getting really good at this.  I remember back 6 or 8 years ago and being really happy when I found a few pictures about some course I read about in a moldy Darwin book.  Now we get beautiful images and poetry.  I mean no disrespect, quite the opposite, but the quality of your work is exposing the rest of us hanging around in the treehouse as voyeurs hitching a ride on a boxcar.  Quit your day job and just photograph and write and about golf courses.  Oh yeah, that doesn’t work.  Thanks, anyway.

Brad Isaacs

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 09:37:07 PM »
I would make reference to Brad Klein's book on the history of he club. May be he can tell you all how to get a copy? it is worth it.
I have played there three times now and am totally in love with the course.

Brad I

Mac Plumart

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 09:39:46 PM »
Brad I...

Would you mind briefly talking about what you love so much about it?  LIke I said, I'm keen to play it and I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2013, 10:15:57 PM »
Terrific 19th hole as well.....

Andy Troeger

Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2013, 10:58:48 PM »
I was interested to look through these photos to see if they would change my mind in terms of the comments I've made over the years that I found Desert Forest to be way too narrow given the "reload" or "unplayable" penalty that the golfer often faces with golf balls in the desert out there. I had heard that the native areas had been thinned and just generally that the course is wider than I gave it credit for.

I'm going with no.

I'm sure that its a wonderful place for those that "miss it straight," as I think Ran mentioned. For those of that miss it crooked, its a long day. Perhaps the course just does not fit my game, but I'm not familiar with a great course that's this narrow with this much penalty for missing fairways. I'm sure with more plays that I'd learn more nuances of how to find "wider" sections of fairway and to hit different clubs off the tee, but even with a lot to like (the natural aspects, walkable routing, the 7th hole, the club atmosphere) I think the penal nature of the desert is something the course can't overcome if you're comparing it to the greats. Perhaps that's why I think We-Ko-Pa Saguaro is so far ahead of the field in the Phoenix metro area.

On the plus side, I would still tell any of you to see it if you get the opportunity. Its probably the most unique course in the area and as far as my experience its pretty unique period. Its something students of architecture should see, even if its "not my type."

Dan Moore

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2013, 11:38:34 PM »
Wow I can see why Dan Moore joined, just a shame I'll miss out on a game there next month.

Mark,  while our schedules do not look like they will  overlap I will be happy to set you up.  Given thats its currently 5 derees F or 27 degrees below freezing in Chicago  (-15c) I'm very happy about a 5 day visit next week. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 12:00:08 AM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 03:13:48 AM »
Dan that is very kind of you. I'm turning down games left, right and centre as its a holiday and not a golf trip. I'm not even taking clubs and will "only" play Whisper Rock a couple of times and Cypress Point during the trip. -27 that's cold, we've -1 and 6 inches of snow and it's like Armageddon!
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 07:18:29 AM »
I was interested to look through these photos to see if they would change my mind in terms of the comments I've made over the years that I found Desert Forest to be way too narrow given the "reload" or "unplayable" penalty that the golfer often faces with golf balls in the desert out there. I had heard that the native areas had been thinned and just generally that the course is wider than I gave it credit for.

I'm going with no.

I'm sure that its a wonderful place for those that "miss it straight," as I think Ran mentioned. For those of that miss it crooked, its a long day. Perhaps the course just does not fit my game, but I'm not familiar with a great course that's this narrow with this much penalty for missing fairways. I'm sure with more plays that I'd learn more nuances of how to find "wider" sections of fairway and to hit different clubs off the tee, but even with a lot to like (the natural aspects, walkable routing, the 7th hole, the club atmosphere) I think the penal nature of the desert is something the course can't overcome if you're comparing it to the greats. Perhaps that's why I think We-Ko-Pa Saguaro is so far ahead of the field in the Phoenix metro area.

On the plus side, I would still tell any of you to see it if you get the opportunity. Its probably the most unique course in the area and as far as my experience its pretty unique period. Its something students of architecture should see, even if its "not my type."

Funny you say that.  I don't get any sense of the course from the pix other than it looks to be a tight course.  What do others think?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chris Clouser

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2013, 08:15:23 AM »
I'm curious to see what draws people to Desert Forest.  Is it that this course stands out because it is a really good desert course, and there are so few of those?  Or is it because DF is actually a really good course?  I have never been there so I can only base any opinion on information on this site or word of mouth from others.  Based on what I have heard in the past from people is that DF is just a standout desert design and not a course that would warrant attention otherwise...

Curious to see what others think...

Andy Troeger

Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 08:34:59 AM »
Chris,
I do find desert golf to be a bit different from playing anywhere else. Even though I moved to the southwest, I don't play as much as I used to in Indiana. The prices are necessarily higher because of the water usage needed to keep the courses alive, and the desert always makes recovery options dicey. Balls tend to run through the desert until they find a cold dark place to hide--even when the vegetation is sparse balls disappear at times. Also most of the high-end courses in Scottsdale are residential in nature and also are tough walks. I like Desert Highlands and Desert Mountain Renegade and Outlaw more than Desert Forest personally because they are still generally interesting from a design standpoint with more room to miss it and find it. None of them are easy.

Sean,
I've played other courses where the fairways are of similar width to Desert Forest--the corridors are still on the narrow side in spots and the holes that dog-leg seemed to make those holes feel narrower than their actual width. I would guess those are the ones where members throttle back a bit. The distinction at Desert Forest from other narrow courses is that balls that miss the fairway are going to be tough to find and tougher to play even if its just to hack out into the fairway.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 10:18:11 AM »
The prices are necessarily higher because of the water usage needed to keep the courses alive, and the desert always makes recovery options dicey.
Balls tend to run through the desert until they find a cold dark place to hide--even when the vegetation is sparse balls disappear at times. Also most of the high-end courses in Scottsdale are residential in nature and also are tough walks. I like Desert Highlands and Desert Mountain Renegade and Outlaw more than Desert Forest personally because they are still generally interesting from a design standpoint with more room to miss it and find it. None of them are easy.  [
The distinction at Desert Forest from other narrow courses is that balls that miss the fairway are going to be tough to find and tougher to play even if its just to hack out into the fairway.
Andy, Dicey? Dicey is what you should aspire to, if you value recovery as a major component to being a sportsman, accentuating the enjoyable/fun factor.

Are you implying DF is a tough walk? And, what does generally interesting mean?  DF is more than generally interesting. It's fascinating. In no way does DF play as narrow as it feels, (or looks from aerial) unless all you are trying to do is hit as far as possible. It's truthfully one of the most tactfully designed courses built, in any environ.
  
The difference is much more than how the desert plays. It's often how, and where, you missed the fairway at DF that makes it fascinating. It's the grounds undulations that deflect and can cause the ball to find the desert. Those same undulations test shot making capabilities on one's next. Few, if any desert course feature these core principles, in such abundance.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:21:50 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 10:42:46 AM »
Ran,

After playing a good number of courses in the area, when I played Desert Forest, it was like stepping back in time, away from all the glitz that's found at most of the modern courses.  When I first played it, I was taken back but what many would consider a minimalist approach.  It was an enormous departure from the other courses which relied heavily on visual distractions, vis a vis elevated tees.

I too found the ribbons of fairway "tight".

As to your comment about giving pause to the "gorilla", like Pine Valley, the penalty for errant drives is considerable.
Hence, discretion is the better part of valor.

But, you...... thinking ?  That's a conflict in terminology isn't it ?

Travis, who presented wide fairways, thought the penalty for missing them should be severe.
Lawrence, perhaps accounting for the dry conditions and thiner air, compressed the fairways to ribbons running along the desert terrain, hence accuracy is rewarded and inaccuracy severely penalized.

That area of Arizona is almost climate controlled, but, it does get hot in the summer.
What's the elevation at Desert Forest ?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2013, 10:50:12 AM »
Pat,

I don't know the elevation but generally speaking the North Scottsdale/Carefree area is anywhere from 10*- 20* cooler than downtown Phoenix in the summer.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2013, 11:32:18 AM »
Pat,

I don't know the elevation but generally speaking the North Scottsdale/Carefree area is anywhere from 10*- 20* cooler than downtown Phoenix in the summer.

Steve,

I noticed it last May, elevation certainly impacts temperature, even at Desert Mountain.

Have you played the "Outlaw" course yet.

If not, do so before they begin overseeding and ruining it next year.


Dave Givnish

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2013, 11:41:29 AM »
Elevation at the clubhouse is roughly 2,450 if my free iPhone app is to be believed. The 13th green and 14th tee are the high points on the property - about 125' to 150' higher.

Andy Troeger

Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2013, 11:54:03 AM »
The prices are necessarily higher because of the water usage needed to keep the courses alive, and the desert always makes recovery options dicey.
Balls tend to run through the desert until they find a cold dark place to hide--even when the vegetation is sparse balls disappear at times. Also most of the high-end courses in Scottsdale are residential in nature and also are tough walks. I like Desert Highlands and Desert Mountain Renegade and Outlaw more than Desert Forest personally because they are still generally interesting from a design standpoint with more room to miss it and find it. None of them are easy.  [
The distinction at Desert Forest from other narrow courses is that balls that miss the fairway are going to be tough to find and tougher to play even if its just to hack out into the fairway.
Andy, Dicey? Dicey is what you should aspire to, if you value recovery as a major component to being a sportsman, accentuating the enjoyable/fun factor.

Are you implying DF is a tough walk? And, what does generally interesting mean?  DF is more than generally interesting. It's fascinating. In no way does DF play as narrow as it feels, (or looks from aerial) unless all you are trying to do is hit as far as possible. It's truthfully one of the most tactfully designed courses built, in any environ.
  
The difference is much more than how the desert plays. It's often how, and where, you missed the fairway at DF that makes it fascinating. It's the grounds undulations that deflect and can cause the ball to find the desert. Those same undulations test shot making capabilities on one's next. Few, if any desert course feature these core principles, in such abundance.

Adam,
DF is a pretty simple walk--that's certain a plus. I can change the word dicey to nonexistant if you want--but I'm guessing that's a little unfair. I'm all for trying recovery shots, but I'm not convinced that opportunity exists from the middle of most desert plants. And that's my complaint--the penalty for poor thought or execution is too significant. I think that's a major problem, in a similar fashion to a course I've played in Indiana that has hazards/OB on both sides of 17 holes. Re-teeing or taking unplayable lies all the time isn't fun. Maybe I need to see it more to understand that there are bail-out areas, because I missed them the first time around.

Perhaps you have to be a straight hitter to get the strategy--I think my best strategy would be to play the course without my driver or 3-wood and hope to bunt it around. I suppose that's still strategy, but I'm not sure I'd call it fun on a regular basis.

Dave Givnish

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2013, 12:04:26 PM »
Chris

There were a number of things that attracted me to DF. There are damn few walking courses in Phoenix, and DF is one of the best. That's the sad reality of real estate golf. Also, my wife is a high handicap player and most of the other private clubs are just not that accessible to lesser skilled players. DF doesn't have the forced carries (except for #7) that dictate play.

I liked the "two course" situation when we went dormant in the winter. A brown course in January is a hard sell to folks coming down from Illinois and Wisconsin though. I hope that we'll be able to get back to that as the course is arguably at its best with dormant conditions. Seeing virtually no play on Desert Mountain Renegade which is dormant this year makes me think we are not alone in this regard.

I understand Andy's concerns about the penalty for errant shots but it's really not that big of an issue as long as you don't automatically pull driver on every 4-par and 5-par. I hit driver about 80% of the time and maybe get into crap one or two times a round. For what it's worth, a soft fade works pretty well around the course. Bunting is really only needed with a cross wind and that only happens during the Club Championship.

Ran did a fantastic job after walking off a cross-country flight to his rental car literally to the 1st tee. I think he parred the 1st hole as well.

Brian Stewart

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2013, 02:57:19 PM »
Chris,

I agree with everything Dave mentions but to more directly answer your question, I also think that really good golf course.  I don't find it too penal at all but I will always remember a moment on my first day as a member in a round with Dave where he said, "You like to play a draw?"  I answered, "Yes" and he followed up with, "That won't last."  ;D  He was right, I play a fade whenever possible now.

I struggle a little bit with those that think it is too penal because most FWs have ample room to hit into, even for a very aggressive player.  Ran really nails this in his description of the 15th.  The FW is huge there.  It looks small but once you know you can miss way left and not just be in play but in the FW you realize that there's no reason to steer the ball at all.  It is like that more often than not.  The greens are the tricky part when it comes to scoring, not keeping the ball in play.

This profile really made me miss home.  I've been in Sydney for the last 7 months for work and therefore haven't had a home round in that time.  There are some great courses here no doubt and I'm quite sure that a course like NSW deserves to be ranked above Desert Forest but there's no place I enjoy playing golf more than at Desert Forest. 

 

Joe Andriole

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Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2013, 03:27:16 PM »
I have been to the Scottsdale area four times. I had the pleasure of playing Desert Forest on each visit. I have played about a dozen courses in that region but have no real desire to replay any of my other experiences. DF is both naturally beautiful and strategically challenging.  Uniquely, it appears to me that the golf course is part of the desert rather than a replaced parcel of it. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Desert Forest course profile is posted
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2013, 05:50:56 PM »
JG,

Did you get a chance to play the "Outlaw" course at Desert Mountain ?