[Sean_A]

Scott's post was kind of neat, but I reckon it needed a separate thread. Oooh, I like this!

The all short fours list:

1 Royal Melbourne East
2 National Golf Links
3 Royal Melbourne West
4 Barnbougle Dunes
5 Royal Dornoch
6 Royal Cinque Ports
7 Ballyneal
8 Pine Valley
9 Rye
10 Riviera
11Yale
12 Bonnie Doon
13 The Lakes
14 Barnbougle Lost Farm
15 Hankley Common
16 Burnham & Berrow
17 Huntercombe
18 Durban

1. Brora  
2. Sandwich  Silloth
3. Cavendish  Sunny Old, Cruden Bay, Silloth
4. St Enodoc  Woking
5. Portrush Valley  Old Town, Ballybunion Cashen, Cleeve Cloud
6. Deal  UofM, Hunstanton
7. Pennard
8. Royal Portrush Dunluce
9. Beau Desert Rye, Princes, Portrush Valley Links, Burnham & Berrow Channel
10. Merion  Saunton East
11. Saunton East  Painswick
12. Porthmadog  Perranporth
13. North Berwick  Lahinch, Stoneham
14. Little Aston  The Island
15. Dornoch?
16. Aberdovey  Notts  Burnham, Prestwick
17. Minch Old   Huntercombe
18. Kington

EDIT I am going to nick Ian's choice of Aberdovey's 16th.  

I also like Dornoch for #5, but I am then a bit stuck for a 15th.  

I wasn't sure if TOC's 12th was short enough as it usually plays into the wind. I will leave it off as I don't think I have ever hit less than 8 iron there - sort of no man's land between short and medium par 4.    

EDIT DOS I nicked Paul's Minch Old 17th.

EDIT TRES  Porthmadog replaces Perrnaporth.

Ciao

[Mark McKeever]

Hole 5 at Boston Golf Club should be included in the list!

Mark

[Niall C]

Sean

I'm constantly amazed that you can remember all these holes, not only that but remembering their number on the course. Before I go and dig out my strokesavers to have a go at playing this game and also the other similar thread you've got going, care to define what you consider a short par 4 to be, just by way of guidance.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sean

I'm constantly amazed that you can remember all these holes,
Niall

I agree 100%.

BTW, have we met?

[Sean_A]

Sean

I'm constantly amazed that you can remember all these holes, not only that but remembering their number on the course. Before I go and dig out my strokesavers to have a go at playing this game and also the other similar thread you've got going, care to define what you consider a short par 4 to be, just by way of guidance.

Niall

Niall

What makes you think I remembered all these holes off the top of my head?  I can assure you, that isn't the case.  I had to look a list of courses and then things click into place.  I struggled with #12 - I couldn't think of anything so I looked up Perranporth knowing it has some shorties - not totally satisfied with the choice. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

oh, once or twice..........struggling to remember where though  

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

I also found I had a couple of holes in my post you quoted in the OP where I was wracking my brain for any hole of that number that I'd played that was a short four.

One probably stands out clearly, the other ended up being a fairly outstanding hole when I remembered it.

Leaving great holes out is the hardest part of the exercise when they clash with something event better (like Sand Hills 7 & 8 with the corresponding holes at Ballyneal and PV)

[Niall C]

Gents

Definition ?

Niall

[John Ezekowitz]

I'd put Merion 11 in there. Also agree on BGC 5.

[Niall C]

Look Sean, if I'm going to spend the next 6 hours going through 100 plus strokesavers plus numerous editions of World Atlas of Golf, drawing up a short list and then phoning some of my mates at 2 in the morning for a second opinion, I want to know the rules before I start.

Niall

[Scott Warren]

Niall,

I worked roughly on being at least near-driveable for me and tried to avoid holes over 300m / 330y.

There's one or two in my list that are a drive and a flick, so not necessarily all driveable.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I am ashamed to say that if I find sleep difficult (that means that there is something important early next day or I am driving, and therefore going easy on the alcohol) I do all sorts of these exercises. I find that I know intimately golf courses I have never played all over the world because I have read this book or that.

Short par 4s? Royal Adelaide, Durban Country Club, Riviera? I know them all. Of course I've never played them but I know how to incorporate them into my various eclectic 18s.

Keep dreaming....

[Anders Rytter]

18th on TOC

[Joe_Tucholski]

Sean

I'm constantly amazed that you can remember all these holes, not only that but remembering their number on the course. Before I go and dig out my strokesavers to have a go at playing this game and also the other similar thread you've got going, care to define what you consider a short par 4 to be, just by way of guidance.

Niall

Niall

What makes you think I remembered all these holes off the top of my head?  I can assure you, that isn't the case.  I had to look a list of courses and then things click into place.  I struggled with #12 - I couldn't think of anything so I looked up Perranporth knowing it has some shorties - not totally satisfied with the choice. 

Ciao

The 12th at Rustic Canyon in CA is A pretty good short par 4.

[Anders Rytter]

I really liked 3rd on Carnoustie, anyone else? at 316yds from mens tee it qualifies

[Sean_A]

Look Sean, if I'm going to spend the next 6 hours going through 100 plus strokesavers plus numerous editions of World Atlas of Golf, drawing up a short list and then phoning some of my mates at 2 in the morning for a second opinion, I want to know the rules before I start.

Niall

Nall
I guess I was thinking from drivable to to driver/wedge.  There are certainly holes which wouldn't qualify if the prevailing wind turned.  I was thinking NB's Pit is a case in point.  Usually its a drive/wedge unless one wants to lay back.  No matter though, if it doesn't qualify Stoneham's is great. 

Mark etc - I only ever use holes I know for these things and usually only from courses I have a lot of time for. 

John

I hadn't considered Merion's 11th, but I prefer the uniqueness of Saunton's. 

Scott

Yes, I struggled with a few. I am not entirely satisfied with Huntercombe as a choice either.

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

I like short par-4's. They are the only ones I can reach in two! My eclectic round of short par-4's, based on courses I have actually played (and can remember).

#1 Either Brora or Royal Dornoch
#2
#3 Cruden Bay or Castle Stuart
#4
#5 Royal Dornoch (I like #5 at Golspie too)
#6
#7 Harding Park or Golspie
#8 Cypress Point
#9 Cypress Point
#10
#11 Lincoln Park (San Francisco)
#12
#13 Olympic Ocean
#14
#15 Royal Dornoch
#16 Lake Merced or the Meadow Club or Harding Park
#17
#18 Olympic Lake
  

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'd throw in 14 at Baltray / County Louth

[Ronald Montesano]

If you drive the ball 300 yards, 400 is a short par four. If you drive the ball 200 yards, it's not.

If a hole is downhill, playing downwind and has a firm fairway, I might bounce one on at 350, so I suspect that 350 is the longest to which I would grant "Short Par 4" status.

The subsequent notation is typical set of tees. If the back are 390 but the middies where I play are 350, it's a short par four for my list.

Some might say "driveable in all circumstances." If that's the case, my distance designation must change.

I agree that we should have a definition, albeit perhaps only a personal one. I'll be back with my 350-And-Under collection later.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm glad to see #15 at Dornoch getting a couple of mentions.  It's obviously anti-climatic after Foxy, but a really good and fun hole on its own merits.

[Tom_Doak]

Personally, I think the fetish for drivable par-4's must have reached a new extreme, if we now can't call a par-4 "short" unless it's drivable.  Drive-and-pitch holes have always been part of the class in the historical literature ... so I think anything up to 375 yards should qualify.

Sean and Scott have taken a lot of the choices for my list, so here's one from my own courses:

#1   Lost Dunes (or Streamsong Blue)
#2   St. Andrews Beach
#3   Old Macdonald (or Barnbougle Dunes)
#4   Barnbougle Dunes
#5   Sebonack (or Rock Creek)
#6   Pacific Dunes (or Apache Stronghold)
#7   Ballyneal  (or High Pointe)
#8   The Renaissance Club [will be #5 when routing changes this summer] (or Common Ground or St. Andrews Beach)
#9   St. Andrews Beach

#10   Riverfront (or Stonewall North)
#11   Bay of Dreams (or Beechtree)
#12   Ballyneal
#13   Black Forest at Wilderness Valley (or Old Macdonald)
#14   Cape Kidnappers (or St. Andrews Beach, or Bay of Dreams)
#15   Rock Creek (or Barnbougle Dunes)
#16   Pacific Dunes (or Stone Eagle)
#17   Beechtree
#18   Aetna Springs [actually the 9th, but it IS the finishing hole]

I don't think I have a bias against putting a short par-4 near the end, it just hasn't worked out that way.  But I have had one or two clients who voted against the possibility.

[Ian Andrew]

I'll revise as I think of them...

1 National Golf Links of America
2 St. Andrew’s Beach
3 Royal Melbourne West
4 Barnbougle Dunes
5 Royal Portrush (I drove the green downwind)
6 Pacific Dunes
7 Pennard
8 Pine Valley
9 Cypress Point

10 Riviera
11 Merion
12 St. Andrew’s OLD
13 North Berwick
14 County Louth (the green is stunning)
15 Fenway (hardest drivable hole in golf)
16 Aberdovey (super cool)
17 Crystal Downs
18 Olympic (least happy pick)

[David_Tepper]

"I'm glad to see #15 at Dornoch getting a couple of mentions.  It's obviously anti-climatic after Foxy, but a really good and fun hole on its own merits."

Bill M. -

Hitting the 15th green at Dornoch, even from 80 yards, is one of the most challenging "easy" shots on the course.

DT

[Dave Herrick]

After the long slog up the hill the respite offered by the consecutive short par 4s at 13 and 14 on the Ocean Course at The Olympic Club can be very welcoming. A personal favorite of mine at Ballyneal is the 14th, perhaps overshadowed by its brethren at 7 and 12.

[Scott Szabo]

I'd add Sand Hills #7 and 8, along with Wild Horse #15 from my neck of the woods.

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