[Patrick_Mucci]

templates that makes them so enduring ?

What is it about their architectural values that causes architects to replicate them in their basic concept or mirror images ??

# 17 at Pacific Dunes is a hole that quickly comes to mind

Old Macdonald is an entire course based on the template principles.

So what is it about them that makes them so enjoyable to play ?

What is it about them that causes architects to replicate them ?

100 years later ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Wealthy people are drawn to things they know. Template courses have always been and continue to be courses for the wealthy.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Wealthy people are drawn to things they know. Template courses have always been and continue to be courses for the wealthy.

Not all of them.  


Pat,
You said it yourself, their architectural values. No one (in their right mind) would continue to replicate or adapt mediocre 'templates' for 100 years.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think the biarritz could have survived as long as it did unless this is another example of one person wanting what another has.  It's kinda like the modern waterfall thing.

[Jim_Kennedy]

They're still being built, and on some public courses. Highland Reserve/ Mike Dasher is one example, Pilgrim's Run / Mike DeVries is another.

They must have some socially redeeming quality other than being the object of the covetous person.

Now, find a Biarritz green fronting a waterfall and.............

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat - I'm reminded of what the Roman critic Horace wrote way back in 30 BC or so: "A play should not be shorter or longer than five acts". Well, for centuries and centuries playwrights followed that pattern -- notably (and most memorably and to great effect) Shakespeare. Then in the 1800s, another critic went into more detail and described those five acts as: exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, and revelation -- and again, that pattern has proven to resonate deeply. In other words, the 5 act structure, like the great gca templates, simply works. . Now, some might suggest that we've simply grown accustomed to play structures and templates; but I think that it's not that we've gotten used to the patterns, but that such Patterns pre-exist and are functions of the art forms themselves (and perhaps even of our human psyches) and that they made themselves manifest as soon as artists became conscious of their art -- for plays, back in 30 BC; for gca, around 1910.

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

Follow the money. Banks fund what has worked in the past.

[A.G._Crockett]

Holes that are superior at combining subtle difficulty with reward only for a great shot are fun to play over and over and over.  Just as cliches became cliches because they contain great truth, template holes become that because they are good GCA always; they work!

Maybe a key feature is that the difficulties ARE subtle.  A short redan allows golfers of all levels to play enjoyably, but only rewards really well-struck shots.

[John Kavanaugh]

Holes that are superior at combining subtle difficulty with reward only for a great shot are fun to play over and over and over.  Just as cliches became cliches because they contain great truth, template holes become that because they are good GCA always; they work!

Maybe a key feature is that the difficulties ARE subtle.  A short redan allows golfers of all levels to play enjoyably, but only rewards really well-struck shots.

How does a Biarritz fit into your model. They are like the freak show at the county fair.

[A.G._Crockett]

Holes that are superior at combining subtle difficulty with reward only for a great shot are fun to play over and over and over.  Just as cliches became cliches because they contain great truth, template holes become that because they are good GCA always; they work!

Maybe a key feature is that the difficulties ARE subtle.  A short redan allows golfers of all levels to play enjoyably, but only rewards really well-struck shots.

How does a Biarritz fit into your model. They are like the freak show at the county fair.

Quite nicely, thank you.  If you hit a good shot you are rewarded; it usually doesn't even have to be a great shot on a biarritz.  And if you don't, you aren't penalized irreparably; you have a putter in your hand with either two or three levels involved in the putt, which really isn't that uncommon and certainly isn't impossible.

I'll defer to your knowledge of county fair freak shows, though.

[mike_beene]

I may be dating myself, but Putt-Putt with its template holes( not sure what they were a template of) was more popular than other mini golf. The whole world of franchising relates as well. McDonald's proves that it not just the rich who like repetition and familiarity

[Patrick_Mucci]

How much of the element of "fun to play" is responsible for their enduring popularity ?

[John Kavanaugh]

How much of the element of "fun to play" is responsible for their enduring popularity ?

Besides the Redan which templates are more fun to play when compared to any other hole that fits the natural landscape and situation?  We all know that few redans are redans and for the life of me I don't see the added fun in the real over the faux.  I just like hitting a ball away from the pin and watching it funnel to the hole.  To say that is a template is a stretch.

[Ken Moum]

....I think that it's not that we've gotten used to the patterns, but that such Patterns pre-exist and are functions of the art forms themselves (and perhaps even of our human psyches) and that they made themselves manifest as soon as artists became conscious of their art -- for plays, back in 30 BC; for gca, around 1910.

Peter

Not unlike, I would argue, Phi also known as the golden ratio, golden mean, etc.  

It's 1.618, as shown by this illustration, where the top line is divided in such a way that the ration of (A) to  (B) is the same as the ratio of  (B) to (C):



Another graphic representation



As a photographer, I find that when I'm looking through the viewfinder and a composition looks "right" it's often true that the horizon is on the golden ratio, or that a major item in the photo is on it, or both.

Here is a good explanation of how often is appears in nature. http://www.goldennumber.net/golden-ratio/

FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if golf holes that "look good" probably have more than a little of the golden ratio in them, whether by design or accident.

In an image like this, for instance, the horizontal and vertical divisions are pretty close to the golden ratio.



Maybe I'd play better with a shirt like this

[Peter Pallotta]

Ken - thanks, that's very cool and insightful, and a better example than my own. I have no idea why, and I can't explain it (though I'm sure there are many who could), but these fundamental patterns -- in mathematics, in music with the pentatonic scale -- seem both 'out there' and 'in here'...and when someone 'discovers' them it's more like a 'remembering', and it feels 'right'.

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

How much of the element of "fun to play" is responsible for their enduring popularity ?

Besides the Redan which templates are more fun to play when compared to any other hole that fits the natural landscape and situation? 

The SHORT, EDEN, BIARRITZ, BOTTLE, PLATEAU, DOUBLE PLATEAU and ROAD immediately come to mind

We all know that few redans are redans and for the life of me I don't see the added fun in the real over the faux. 
I just like hitting a ball away from the pin and watching it funnel to the hole.  To say that is a template is a stretch.

[Bill_McBride]

Holes that are superior at combining subtle difficulty with reward only for a great shot are fun to play over and over and over.  Just as cliches became cliches because they contain great truth, template holes become that because they are good GCA always; they work!

Maybe a key feature is that the difficulties ARE subtle.  A short redan allows golfers of all levels to play enjoyably, but only rewards really well-struck shots.

How does a Biarritz fit into your model. They are like the freak show at the county fair.

John, have you played a Biarritz and had the thrill of seeing a well-struck low shot land in front, bounce across the front tier, disappear into the swale, then reappear in the vicinity of a rear pin?   There aren't a lot of more fun shots in golf. 

[Philippe Binette]

Simple answer

The "template" holes have a clear, defined, and definitve purpose that :

A) is strikingly visible (the player cansee it)
B) is understandable (the player can catch it)
C) is orientative: every decision about the desing of the hole is centered on what the hole needs. On the contours, the bunkering, the green positions, the angles, you asked yourself, is this going along the lines of the purpose of the hole or not.
D) is restrictive: the architect doesn't put pointless stuff on the hole.. (example, on the road hole... there is no point putting bunkers on the right side of the tee, since the farther right you go, the more impossible your second shot becomes)

[A.G._Crockett]

Simple answer

The "template" holes have a clear, defined, and definitve purpose that :

A) is strikingly visible (the player cansee it)
B) is understandable (the player can catch it)
C) is orientative: every decision about the desing of the hole is centered on what the hole needs. On the contours, the bunkering, the green positions, the angles, you asked yourself, is this going along the lines of the purpose of the hole or not.
D) is restrictive: the architect doesn't put pointless stuff on the hole.. (example, on the road hole... there is no point putting bunkers on the right side of the tee, since the farther right you go, the more impossible your second shot becomes)

I really like this list.  From a layman's perspective, I'd like to find a way to add that most of these holes offer a chance of recovery from a mediocre shot, coupled with the feeling afterwards that, "I could have played that better; I will next time, and I can't wait."  I think that's a lot of what I would mean by "fun".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Simple answer

The "template" holes have a clear, defined, and definitve purpose that :

A) is strikingly visible (the player cansee it)
B) is understandable (the player can catch it)
C) is orientative: every decision about the desing of the hole is centered on what the hole needs. On the contours, the bunkering, the green positions, the angles, you asked yourself, is this going along the lines of the purpose of the hole or not.
D) is restrictive: the architect doesn't put pointless stuff on the hole.. (example, on the road hole... there is no point putting bunkers on the right side of the tee, since the farther right you go, the more impossible your second shot becomes)

Philippe,

Yes and no,

A). The Redan isn't' strikingly visible, especially at North Berwick and Piping Rock
       Some Biarritz's also lack striking visibility, like Mountain Lake
B).  Ditto for being understandable on those holes
C).  Agreed
D).  Agreed

Certainly the Short and Eden possess all four, not so sure about some of the others like the Bottle and Double Plateau at NGLA.

The Cape and Punchbowl would seem to contain all four although some punchbowls are recessed or sunken, compromising visibility

But, not the Leven,

So in some instances they can't be lumped together.

I think, with familiarity, there's a recognition that certain shots are required, that the hole represents a specific test.

Let's take the "short".
It requires precision, especially when the putting surface is segmented like # 6 at NGLA and # 11 at Westhampton.
And, on sites where the wind is prevalent, the short's yardage is no indication of the hole's difficulty.
The volcano like, truncated green with steep sides presents a formidable target despite the lack of yardage.

So the hole, no matter where you play it, is remarkably similar and the nice thing is that the hole doesn't require power,
It's going to be a short club for every golfer.

So, it's strikingly visible, understandable, orientative and restrictive.

I think the same four principles can be applied to the Eden.

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