[Ben Lovett]

Looks like the the dunes are fighting back
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4748353/New-19th-hole-at-Donald-Trumps-golf-course.html

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Re-open in April 

Is this the norm for non-member clubs like Trump Aberdeen? What about Castle Stuart; does it close for the winter?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Environmental scientist Andy Wightman said: “There’s a real danger greens could collapse in the sea. It’ll all end in tears.”

Can anyone offer an unbiased view as to whether this is hyperbole?

I expect so Brian.

The only green in danger from the sea would be the third - the rest are sheltered by a massive dune ridge.

But I know there was an enormous amount of water they had to reroute within the course boundaries due to a high glacial water table so it appears that the internal water courses are the ones that are running the main risk.... But then most greens are up higher. Only ones I remember being close to dune slacks or low lying near water areas were maybe 2, 3 & 8...

Just guesswork mind.

[Sean_A]

Ally

Even so, it seems strange to me that the greens would be in danger of disappearing. Wouldn't it take monsoon rains with loads of sink hole/erosion damage to do the job?  

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

What would have happened to the land if the golf course wasn't here ?

[Adam Clayman]

I've always wondered if there was a good reason nobody had sought out this site, for golf, before. Apparently there is.

Remembering Trumps words about the size of his dunes versus those puny ones at Pac Dunes, is priceless.

[jeffwarne]

I've always wondered if there was a good reason nobody had sought out this site, for golf, before. Apparently there is.

Remembering Trumps words about the size of his dunes versus those puny ones at Pac Dunes, is priceless.

If they built more windmills, they would serve as a windbreak

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

What would have happened to the land if the golf course wasn't here ?

I'd imagine the storm damage would have gone unnoticed. It probably wouldn't matter to anyone. If left alone, this dune system would have continued to evolve as it did for thousands of years.

Have all the shifting dune areas been stabilized? If I owner the course, I'd be concerned with unstable dunes outside of the property; if there are any. Open blowouts adjacent to the property could cause great damage. 

  

[David_Tepper]

"Is this the norm for non-member clubs like Trump Aberdeen? What about Castle Stuart; does it close for the winter?"

Donal C. -

I am pretty sure Castle Stuart does close for at least 2 or 3 winter months.

Everyone should be aware that the northeast of Scotland has been hit with at least a couple of severe storms over the past 4-6 weeks. A number of seaside courses have suffered damage from flooding and rising sea levels.

Golspie, north of Dornoch, got hit hard a few days before Christmas.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54339.0.html

DT

[Mark Pearce]

Patrick,

The original dune system was a moving dune system.  All that would have happened would have been that the dunes moved, which is what moving dune systems do.  The problem is that building a golf course on a moving dune system requires stabilisation of the dunes which, as they have just found out, isn't easy in the weather we've been experiencing on the North East coast of the UK.  That said, wind, wave and tidal erosion is a reality of life for many links courses and I don't think there's anything special here about the Trump course.  It's just one of the hazards of having a links course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What would have happened to the land if the golf course wasn't here ?

I'd imagine the storm damage would have gone unnoticed. It probably wouldn't matter to anyone. If left alone, this dune system would have continued to evolve as it did for thousands of years.

How could it continue to evolve if it fell into the sea ?

Have all the shifting dune areas been stabilized? If I owner the course, I'd be concerned with unstable dunes outside of the property; if there are any. Open blowouts adjacent to the property could cause great damage. 

  

[Ally Mcintosh]

The erosion seems to have been near the 4th tees. This is beside a drain / burn / water course that obviously rose, flooded and caused the erosion.

Unless I'm very much mistaken it has nothing to do with whether the dunes were stabilised or not stabilised / are moving or are not moving. The mobile dune system was further to the north (the majority of the back nine). The south of the site was fairly well established.

I doubt that any of the greens will get washed away if they haven't done already with these storms. It is purely water rising and flooding at low points like everywhere else in the UK.

Again - guesswork.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

The original dune system was a moving dune system.  All that would have happened would have been that the dunes moved, which is what moving dune systems do.  The problem is that building a golf course on a moving dune system requires stabilisation of the dunes which, as they have just found out, isn't easy in the weather we've been experiencing on the North East coast of the UK.  That said, wind, wave and tidal erosion is a reality of life for many links courses and I don't think there's anything special here about the Trump course.  It's just one of the hazards of having a links course.

Mark,

I know the difference between shifting and falling into the sea.

This isn't about shifting due to the wind, like the oblique dunes in Oregon, it's about storm damage and the sea engulfing the area.

[Mark Pearce]

Patrick,

Bits of dunes fall into the sea all the time.  Just as, in other conditions, additional sand is blown onto dunes.  It's well known that the East coast of the UK is mostly "falling into the sea", whilst the west coast is, on the whole, being built up.  Links like Brancaster are in real danger of losing whole holes.  The reality is that part of the evolution of the UK coastal system is the loss of some land and the addition of other land.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

What would have happened to the land if the golf course wasn't here ?

I'd imagine the storm damage would have gone unnoticed. It probably wouldn't matter to anyone. If left alone, this dune system would have continued to evolve as it did for thousands of years.

How could it continue to evolve if it fell into the sea ?

Have all the shifting dune areas been stabilized? If I owner the course, I'd be concerned with unstable dunes outside of the property; if there are any. Open blowouts adjacent to the property could cause great damage. 

  

Pat,

I guess I didn't answer your question very well.

I'd say that if the golf course wasn't there, they wouldn't have had to reinforce the banks of the burn. Unmaintained burns such as these are usually no more than a foot or two deep, but can be quite wide. Perhaps the burn was narrowed as a result of the reinforcement of the banks; consequently became deeper and broke it's banks during the storm.

If there was no golf course, there would not have been a path; therfore no path would have been washed away.

As you wrote, this doesn't appear to be a side affect of the dune system stabilization works.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Bits of dunes fall into the sea all the time.  Just as, in other conditions, additional sand is blown onto dunes.  It's well known that the East coast of the UK is mostly "falling into the sea", whilst the west coast is, on the whole, being built up.  Links like Brancaster are in real danger of losing whole holes.  The reality is that part of the evolution of the UK coastal system is the loss of some land and the addition of other land.

Loss of beaches/dunes happen at the New Jersey shore from time to time, however, local, state and federal programs attempt to stabilize them and prevent future erosion/loss.

Wouldn't stabilization of Trump's dunes be viewed as a constructive effort ?

[Bruce Katona]

A bern is a watercourse, correct?  Should I assume it flows continually?

If the above is correct, this means that something akin to a small flowing stream overflowed its banks and washed out the path and a small area of land by the 4th tee of the course.

While this erosion is a problem and a royal pain to deal with, from the photographic evidence in the news article. i t does not appear to be a situation where the area is in danger of collapse.

These erosion washouts do occur when large storms dump vast quantites of water on an area ina short time period.

[Mark Pearce]

The danger with artificial stabilisation of any area is that experience shows that changing the natural erosion pattern in one place can have significant consequences nearby.  In the case of wilderness I think the position of most people here is to let nature take its course (that is, of course, the natural thing to do).  This is all part of the ever changing nature of our geography and isn't a bad thing.  If that natural movement and erosion isn't a bad thing, why would artificial stabilisation be a good thing?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The danger with artificial stabilisation of any area is that experience shows that changing the natural erosion pattern in one place can have significant consequences nearby.  In the case of wilderness I think the position of most people here is to let nature take its course (that is, of course, the natural thing to do).

 This is all part of the ever changing nature of our geography and isn't a bad thing.
 If that natural movement and erosion isn't a bad thing, why would artificial stabilisation be a good thing?

It is a bad thing when beaches and dunes erode or are captured by the sea.
it's a bad thing when homes are in jeopardy of being destroyed[.
Ditto golf course.
Sandpines might be a good example.

However, if this damage is from internal water flow, as in a stream over flowing, as Bruce described above,  then the headline and article deliberately misrepresent the facts

[Mark Pearce]

It is a bad thing when beaches and dunes erode or are captured by the sea.

Why?

[Brian_Ewen]

I've always wondered if there was a good reason nobody had sought out this site, for golf, before.

Mark Parsinen looked at the site before Trump, and decided against it.

[Bruce Katona]

Thank you Pat.

"Seven years of college not wasted", as the esteemed Senator John Blutarsky aptly stated.

[Steve Lapper]

I've always wondered if there was a good reason nobody had sought out this site, for golf, before.

Mark Parsinen looked at the site before Trump, and decided against it.

He thought it would be too difficult to get approved for a course. That, by his own words, was his primary reason for passing.

[Niall C]

Patrick,

The original dune system was a moving dune system.  All that would have happened would have been that the dunes moved, which is what moving dune systems do.  The problem is that building a golf course on a moving dune system requires stabilisation of the dunes which, as they have just found out, isn't easy in the weather we've been experiencing on the North East coast of the UK.  That said, wind, wave and tidal erosion is a reality of life for many links courses and I don't think there's anything special here about the Trump course.  It's just one of the hazards of having a links course.

Bingo !

[Niall C]

Gents

1 - bear in mind this story appeared in the Sun, so don't take any comment from it as gospel.

2 - this course is built on sand, and as Mark says, on links courses built on sand, erosion and movement is a fact of life. At Balmedie they have been shifting a fair bit about and in addition buggered about the natural water channels so its going to take time to settle. From what I saw on the photos it doesn't look too bad. Happens from time to time on most other links.

3 - course is not built on dunes. Its built behind and between dunes thereby largely shielded from the worst of the weather.

4 - if the Andy Wightman who is quoted in the article is the Andy Wightman I'm thinking of, he's a political campaigner/activist for land reform, has written a couple of books about how supposedly the people have been robbed of common land. No idea if he indeed does have an "environmental" qualifications but you can be fairly sure they come secondary to his political views.

Steve

From what I was told Mark Parsinen turned it down primarily because of the lack of sea views, and that he figured they would have a hell of a job in stabilising the dune system.

Niall

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