Tequila Cup 2013 - Now with photos/dicussion of new 8th hole on Ocean Course

[hhuffines]

Ditto to Brad W's remarks!  Thank you again Greg for a wonderful experience at Cabo del Sol!  As with my beloved Pinehurst, it's a very difficult place to leave.  The fishing was as great as the golf with a marlin, several mahi mahi, sierras, and lots of tuna. 

Brad T, my favorites at the Ocean Course were the par 4s that run to the surf; numbers 5 and 16 I think.  I enjoyed Diamanté as well but much preferred the Cabo del Sol finish along the sea.  I did think Diamanté 4 and 15 were excellent.  What did you like most about about Diamanté 17?

[Brad Tufts]

With single-digit temps in Boston tonight, I miss Cabo!

I likeed #17 because of the view to the right of the hole, and also the risk-reward nature of the hole.  After a solid drive, the green is in reach for many, but you risk landing in the hillside gunch short of the green.  From there, you can make anything from 4 to 7.  The second shot is not a great layup, but the third is still challenging for those laying up because it plays almost completely blind.

I liked #15 too, but without wind, it's merely a long iron and a wedge.  We played it into a 25mph wind, so it was a driver-8i for me.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

The inland holes at CDS Ocean are better than those on the ocean.  Discuss.

[Jason Topp]

The inland holes at CDS Ocean are better than those on the ocean.  Discuss.

Maybe - the strength of the course is the inland holes plus the fact that it has so much beachfront space.  The only course I can think of that compares is Teeth of the Dog but the locations are so different I am not sure the comparison is fair - Cabo del Sol Ocean is probably my preferred location.  Counting 5, 6, 7 16, 17 and 18 as the holes on the ocean and foregoing issues associated with setting (which are fabulous for both but extraordinary on the ocean holes)  I would react as follows:

1.  No - solid opening hole but does not compare with 5 or 18.
2.  Yes - no par fives on the ocean and this is a solid hole.
3.  Maybe - I think 3 is my favorite on the course - a terrific short par 4 in the tradition of Riviera's 10th on a sideslope.
4.  No - the layup is too awkward but it is a nice hole.
8.  Maybe - the green was redone between last year and this year and I am not sure whether or not it is an improvement,'
9  No - solid hole but the most interesting feature is the fallaway green.
10 Maybe- probably is a better hole and an interesting 4-1/2 par from the deeper tees.
11 - maybe - haven't decided on this hole despite multiple plays.  It may be a layup right and a pitch regardless of pin position but I would need more time to know.
12.  Probably - very solid short par 5.
13 - no.  I found a tee shot to the short right side of the green to be the play in all situations because a miss left is dead.
14 Maybe - great short par 4 that rewards precision but also provides a dose of intimidation off the tee. 
15  Maybe - good short par 5.

[Brad Tufts]

I would not agree....

None of them are awkward. 

I would say setting aside (which is all-world), #17 is probably the weakest par three.  It does have VERY stiff competition, so it is fine hole, just loses out to two beauties and a brute.

5 is probably the Ocean Course's best par four.  I would choose 16 next, then 18, then 3.  That's 3-for-4.

I will say the best par fives are 2 then 12.  So on that score, the inland holes win out (but all 4 par fives are inland).

After 5 rounds, still don't know how to play #4...I think it should go long-iron, mid-iron, then short iron.  I think I visited the left junk or rough twice, and the right bunkers/cacti three times off the tee.

[Greg Tallman]

Brad T - Why can you not go for #4 in two? Did you hit a good drive there? I have hit as little as 6-iron for my second and I suspect we are about equal off the tee (even though my out of the office, straight to the 9th tee effort was 25-30 yards shy of yours and that of golf's man of myestery). #10 Diamante over #10 Ocean? Did the most interesting man in golf slip you a mickey at some point? #10 Diamante is, in my opinion, a poor golf hole. par 4, 4.5 or 5... it simply does not work. #10 Ocean is one of the cooler approaches in town. Interesting you take 14 Desert over Ocean, tough call there.

Jason T - Hole location on 11 is EVERYTHING. Left side is a no-no if pin is back right and conversely the approach is much easier from the left if hole is cut short and/or aganst the bunker.

Awkward lay-up on hole 4? I take that as a positive. It makes you think, leaves some doubt in your mind and has trouble involved... what's not to like about that? You prefer a mindless, hit a a couple hundred yards anywhere will do, option? While the par fives do not stand out at first blush given multiple plays you really start to appreciate the quality shots required when laying up at 2, 4 & 12 and, while 15 is typically a green lighter in 2, if forced to layup there it is equally as unsettling given the its tightness and thought that must be paid to the hole location in choosing to what spot you will lay up.

Inland holes - Favorite holes are inland but I am a sucker for good short par 4s. #3 and #14 are as good as they come and totally different though both under 370. I typically play 3 from about 310 and 14 from about 350. Lots of birdies on #3, almost never birdie #14 and interstingly make more large numbers on #3 than at #14 which has trouble everywhere.

#8 - Curious as to why it is not better Jason. Tee shot previously was mindless... massive bunkers that were not really in play and only saved balls from desert right and playable arroyo left(why was arroyo factored out as a natural hazard originally?). Now center bunker makes you choose left(shorter with better angle of approach) or right (far more room but longer and tougher angle of approach unless flag is back and far right). At the green (regardless of current condition) removal of left bunkers that were about 4 to 6 feet deep and replacing them with a chipping area that is probably 30 inches or so beliw the green surface is, I would think, a marked improvement as is the shrinking of the right bunker which is probably 35% of its original size. I will concede we need to perfect the shape and size of the central bunker and perhaps that of the right bunker as well. In fairness to Jim Lipe I am not certain our in house work properly executed his vision but we will get it right. The concept is sound. Best evidence that 8 is better... good players generally don't like it as much and find the changes at the green confounding while average to high handicap players find the changes at the green easier as they can now put from an area that before was the beginning of bunker ping pong back and forth across the narrow green. Let me scrounge around for a couple of before and after pics...  

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Greg,

I like #4 as a tee shot, but it pinches exactly where a solid drive of mine would end up.  I think it's a good hole, just appropriately confounding.  The Spy once cleared all the trouble and hit about 7-iron in there, but he 3-whacked, and I chipped out of the cactus and made a halving par with a 15-footer.  I like the hole, as it transitions to the ocean with long water views.  The tee shot makes you think, and the layup looks tighter than it is.

#10Ocean v. #10Diamante is a tough debate for me.  Not a standout hole on either course.  Positives:  One is a half-par hole with a great view of the surrouding landscape off the tee, and back from the green, and has a unique enormous expanse of fairway.  The other has a neat approach over the cacti (I actually found myself wishing for more interaction with the desert sticking into the holes, but I understand not everyone plays golf mainly through the air, especially at a resort), and it has tacos.  Negatives:  #10Diamante will put a 5 on almost all scorecards, and it's a brutal par four...not much give and take  #10Ocean is not interesting off the tee, and its length is just medium.  I went with the views on my eclectic.

I thought #14 Desert was the best green complex on that course, and #14 Ocean was not one of my faves...mainly because of the tee shot....which didn't fit my eye.  I had trouble convincing myself that #14Ocean does not really play uphill from the fairway.  Tough decision though, from an architecture perspective...two solid holes, one on a course full of solid holes, one on a course where there are fewer.

#3 is very cool...I actually hit driver all four rounds, and put it on the back middle of the green once.  That was my only birdie however, even though I was within 30 yards of the green each time.

You hit the nail right on the head about 8, Greg...I found the tee shot simple (as we could carry the middle bunker), but the green complex is incredibly challenging.  That was the only hole I failed to par over the weekend on the Ocean, and I was within 30 feet of the pin in two shots every time.  To a pin on the front half, being 10 yards short of the green wouldn't be a bad idea.  I initially thought #9 was the hardest par four on the Ocean, but I give the title to #8.

[Greg Tallman]

Hi Greg,

I like #4 as a tee shot, but it pinches exactly where a solid drive of mine would end up.  I think it's a good hole, just appropriately confounding.  The Spy once cleared all the trouble and hit about 7-iron in there, but he 3-whacked, and I chipped out of the cactus and made a halving par with a 15-footer.  I like the hole, as it transitions to the ocean with long water views.  The tee shot makes you think, and the layup looks tighter than it is.

#10Ocean v. #10Diamante is a tough debate for me.  Not a standout hole on either course.  Positives:  One is a half-par hole with a great view of the surrouding landscape off the tee, and back from the green, and has a unique enormous expanse of fairway.  The other has a neat approach over the cacti (I actually found myself wishing for more interaction with the desert sticking into the holes, but I understand not everyone plays golf mainly through the air, especially at a resort), and it has tacos.  Negatives:  #10Diamante will put a 5 on almost all scorecards, and it's a brutal par four...not much give and take  #10Ocean is not interesting off the tee, and its length is just medium.  I went with the views on my eclectic.

I thought #14 Desert was the best green complex on that course, and #14 Ocean was not one of my faves...mainly because of the tee shot....which didn't fit my eye.  I had trouble convincing myself that #14Ocean does not really play uphill from the fairway.  Tough decision though, from an architecture perspective...two solid holes, one on a course full of solid holes, one on a course where there are fewer.

#3 is very cool...I actually hit driver all four rounds, and put it on the back middle of the green once.  That was my only birdie however, even though I was within 30 yards of the green each time.

You hit the nail right on the head about 8, Greg...I found the tee shot simple (as we could carry the middle bunker), but the green complex is incredibly challenging.  That was the only hole I failed to par over the weekend on the Ocean, and I was within 30 feet of the pin in two shots every time.  To a pin on the front half, being 10 yards short of the green wouldn't be a bad idea.  I initially thought #9 was the hardest par four on the Ocean, but I give the title to #8.

Interesting, I thought for sure I saw you 30 yards right of that center bunker and almost in the right bunker whilst the most interesting man in the world took the agressive route up the left side... maybe I am mistaken or maybe its the mystique of golf's man of mystery 

You need to play from the back of the gold box(about 20 yards back of where you played) and then with even a little wind the bunker is definitely in play... from the black box it is the toughest tee shot on the course for me now... only about 255 over the bunker but uphill and into the breeze it is brutal for my game.

[Greg Tallman]

Tee shot on #8 prior to changes. Note the dense scrub in the arroyo and fairway bunkering left and right edges. The scrub also created this issue from time to time as the vegetation received water from the tee irrigation...


No bueno!


Better view of the fariway as it was pre changes

[Greg Tallman]

Construction photo gives perspective on the changes as you can make out where the old bunkers have been filled and grassed as the new bunkers are being built...

And the view from the tee today (literally)

Vegetation cleared. Left side (preferred) is now in play rather than home to a massive bunker. Tees were shifted about 10 yards left down into the dune as well.



Tighter view of fairway

[Greg Tallman]

And now for the changes at the green that Jason is not sure is an improvement... you be the judge (albeit from photos)


Old green and surrounds - deep bunkers left, massive bunker right and more linear angles at green edges



New green and surrounds - bunkers replaced with closely mown swale, 1100 sq feet of additional putting surface and right bunker rediced in size.

[Greg Tallman]

Old greesite short right


New greensite short right


Old look...


New look

[Greg Tallman]

[Greg Tallman]

View from behind pre-changes gives a sens of the size of the bunker and paint gives an idea of how much green to be added...


Just after sod work completed...


Finished product ready for play

[Greg Tallman]

Putting surface added along the back edge creatinga  feeder slope that can be used to get a ball on the front of the green to a hole loocation cut far right just over the bunker. There is not an abrupt change in the slope as the coloration of the turf makes it appear.

[Greg Tallman]

Changes to the bunker, expansion of the green and mowing the right side at fairway height allow for one to access the far right hole location without carrying the bunker to the point one can actually run it up with the correct shot shape and tee shot placement challenging the right fairway bunker.

Brad T found this out by accident as he was trying to carry the central fairway bunker only to block cut it into prime position as the man of mystery, caught up in his own personal delimma/private hell, took what he thought was the smart route up the left side placing the bunker squarely between he and the hole. Perhaps a clear mind would have allowed him see the proper play from the tee more clearly?

Compare above to how the bunker and back right of the green was previously

[Greg Tallman]

Finally, looking back toward the tees... a bit more appealing now.

[Greg Tallman]

I would not agree....

None of them are awkward.  

I would say setting aside (which is all-world), #17 is probably the weakest par three.  It does have VERY stiff competition, so it is fine hole, just loses out to two beauties and a brute.

5 is probably the Ocean Course's best par four.  I would choose 16 next, then 18, then 3.  That's 3-for-4.

I will say the best par fives are 2 then 12.  So on that score, the inland holes win out (but all 4 par fives are inland).

After 5 rounds, still don't know how to play #4...I think it should go long-iron, mid-iron, then short iron.  I think I visited the left junk or rough twice, and the right bunkers/cacti three times off the tee.

I missed this nugget. Can't help but smile when someone says 17 is our weakest par 3...


This is Brad on #17

[Jason Topp]

Greg:

On 8 the tee shot is improved.  The back right pin is an improvement.  My biggest concern is with front pins.  The green is so narrow in front and one will usually have a downhill lie in the swale on the left which combines with the green sloping away from you, which leaves no option for me other than to putt and try and keep it on the green.  The shot from the right of the green is no picnic either.  As to the option of actually hitting the green?  I did not get to experience that one to a front pin and am not sure I would with five more cracks at it. There is very little room to land the ball unless you go long.

The difficulty of the green messes up the interest with respect to the approach.  My options for setting up the approach are to hit it left with something less than a driver which leaves a longer shot to a difficult target or go right and have a shorter shot from an almost impossible angle.  If I successfully squeeze a shot to the left, I want a bigger advantage than is presented now because I am screwed either way.

I kept telling myself I should just aim short but that sucks and I was on vacation.


. . . or it could be my lack of talent.

[Brad Tufts]

On #8, I think Jason has identified the trade-offs.  I think the tee shot is better than before, and does perhaps show that I should have been playing from further back.

I don't think the current front-half of the green is poorly designed...just requires a very precise shot.  From as close as 130-140 yards, this should be do-able.  The shaping in back is very neat, I just didn't have the skill in my rounds to hit one back there and see what happened (I lost the hole to the Austin Powers even though he was in a worse position).

Yeah, it's a bit insane to think that there are three par threes better than a hole in that setting, but I think a flatter green is best on a hole with that type of setting, as crazy contour would become lost as most players are just concentrating on clearing the chasm.  Even on a course with 4 great par threes, one has to be #4 in the rankings!

My fave is #7 by the way...great setting, wild green, you can end up on the beach, tee tied in with #6 green.  Good shot can earn an easy birdie, and a poor shot can mean a 5 on a hole that started with a wedge!

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:

On 8 the tee shot is improved.  The back right pin is an improvement.  My biggest concern is with front pins.  The green is so narrow in front and one will usually have a downhill lie in the swale on the left which combines with the green sloping away from you, which leaves no option for me other than to putt and try and keep it on the green.  The shot from the right of the green is no picnic either.  As to the option of actually hitting the green?  I did not get to experience that one to a front pin and am not sure I would with five more cracks at it. There is very little room to land the ball unless you go long.

The difficulty of the green messes up the interest with respect to the approach.  My options for setting up the approach are to hit it left with something less than a driver which leaves a longer shot to a difficult target or go right and have a shorter shot from an almost impossible angle.  If I successfully squeeze a shot to the left, I want a bigger advantage than is presented now because I am screwed either way.

I kept telling myself I should just aim short but that sucks and I was on vacation.


. . . or it could be my lack of talent.

It is easier than it was for most everyone except an exceptional bunker player, green is larger, multiple options from left and right and the flop shot is also there for the better player.

You might also play away from the hole from either side and use the slopes to get the ball in the vicinity of the hole  

[Jason Topp]

Greg - I recall one conversation where a group of us was identifying our favorite hole.  We all came up with a different answer.  That is a sign of an excellent golf course.  I chose 3, but could have easily chose 2, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 14, 17 or 18.

As to 4 - I hit that one in two the first time around (from the blues) but didn't even think about it thereafter.  I like the hole.  I don't get to hit par fives very often absent a very strong tailwind.   

[Greg Tallman]

Greg - I recall one conversation where a group of us was identifying our favorite hole.  We all came up with a different answer.  That is a sign of an excellent golf course.  I chose 3, but could have easily chose 2, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 14, 17 or 18.

As to 4 - I hit that one in two the first time around (from the blues) but didn't even think about it thereafter.  I like the hole.  I don't get to hit par fives very often absent a very strong tailwind.   

Me either my friend, of course if I actually played golf...

[Jason Topp]

Greg:

On 8 the tee shot is improved.  The back right pin is an improvement.  My biggest concern is with front pins.  The green is so narrow in front and one will usually have a downhill lie in the swale on the left which combines with the green sloping away from you, which leaves no option for me other than to putt and try and keep it on the green.  The shot from the right of the green is no picnic either.  As to the option of actually hitting the green?  I did not get to experience that one to a front pin and am not sure I would with five more cracks at it. There is very little room to land the ball unless you go long.

The difficulty of the green messes up the interest with respect to the approach.  My options for setting up the approach are to hit it left with something less than a driver which leaves a longer shot to a difficult target or go right and have a shorter shot from an almost impossible angle.  If I successfully squeeze a shot to the left, I want a bigger advantage than is presented now because I am screwed either way.

I kept telling myself I should just aim short but that sucks and I was on vacation.


. . . or it could be my lack of talent.

It is easier than it was for most everyone except an exceptional bunker player, green is larger, multiple options from left and right and the flop shot is also there for the better player.

You might also play away from the hole from either side and use the slopes to get the ball in the vicinity of the hole  

Near the hole?  I was trying to hit the green.  I tried to use the slope to help but it is tough to play up that slope at an angle because it is so steep. 

[Greg Tallman]

Bottom line on 8.

Green is larger, including the front portion
Recovery options are more varied and doable for most players