[Alex Lagowitz]

After seeing the Mackenzie thread, I thought it would be neat to determine the best template holes if we were to make an eclectic 18.
I know there have been 'rank the best redan' etc. threads in the past, but to my knowledge never a full 18 holes.
I think we should leave NGLA out, as it would take home too much glory, and focus on the rest of their portfolio.


My nominations:

Redan - Piping Rock
Eden - Essex County CC
Short - Shoreacres
Biarritz - Yale
Alps - Fisher's Island
Road - Shoreacres
Punchbowl - Creek
Bottle - Essex County CC (west course, now Francis Byrne)
Double Plateau - Fisher's Island
Maiden - Essex County CC (very unique green, also the Road Hole)
Raynor's Prize Dog Leg -
Leven -
Cape - Mid Ocean Club

[Mark Saltzman]

Alex, are you calling 6 at Creek the punchbowl?

Anyways, I'll play

Redan - Piping Rock
Eden - Southampton
Short - Sleepy Hollow
Biarritz - Yale
Alps - Fisher's Island
Road - Piping Rock
Punchbowl - Fishers Island
Bottle - ?
Double Plateau - Fisher's Island
Maiden - Southampton
Raynor's Prize Dog Leg -  Southampton

[Mac Plumart]

I'll try to play, but I don't have a huge roster to choose from.

Redan - Chicago Golf Club
Eden - Fishers Island
Short - Lookout Mountain
Biarritz - Fishers Island
Alps - Old MacDonald (I know, I know, but still what a hole!)
Road - Shoreacres
Punchbowl - Southampton
Bottle - NGLA (Sorry, this hole is so good I've got to use NGLA)
Double Plateau - Yeamans Hall
Maiden - ??
Raynor's Prize Dog Leg - Shoreacres
Leven - ??
Cape - Chicago Golf Club
Plateau--Fishers Island

[Patrick_Mucci]

Alex,

How about # 16 at ECE as a double plateau,

# 14 ECE and # 3 Westhampton as a punchbowl ?

# 11  Westhampton  Short

[Zack Molnar]

How about #5 at Camargo for Eden?

[David Kelly]

Most of my picks have been mentioned but I think the 7th at Saint Louis CC is one of the most interesting Short holes I've encountered.

[Ronald Montesano]

#s 2-Punch Bowl, 5-Cape, 6-(Reverse)Redan, 11-Short

at Fox Chapel.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Alex,

How about # 16 at ECE as a double plateau,

# 14 ECE and # 3 Westhampton as a punchbowl ?

# 11  Westhampton  Short

Pat,

Of course I like the DP and pnchbwl at ECCC, but the two at fishers are just so good, not to take away from the others.
As for Westhampton 3rd, I'm still skeptical that was Raynor's idea.  HH Barkers involvement seems likely for that unique hole, which technically is an Eden.

And as for the 11th, take away the outrageous tee at 190 yards, and knock down the houses behind the green, and that could be the best short in the portfolio.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about 12 at Forsgate- Horseshoe  ?

[Phil McDade]

The Road (#5), the Short (#7), the Punchbowl (#8) and the Redan (#13) are all very good versions of Raynor's templates at Blue Mound G&CC. I also think the Cape (#11) is very good there -- the drive is fraught with less danger than many traditional Cape holes, but the green is a true Cape green, ala Mid-Ocean.

[Jeff Shelman]

I hope I can see enough template holes in my life to be able to offer an informed opinion here.

[PCCraig]

One really under the radar Redan that should be mentioned is the one at Somerset CC in Minnesota. Doesn't look like much from the tee, but it's phenomenal with a huge green that slopes away from the tee with significant internal contour. Apparently it hasn't been touched since Raynor built it as part of one of his earlier solo designs.

The Punchbowl at Blue Mound is really great...the best hole on the course IMO. STLCC also has a great one.

My favorite short is probably 12 at Shoreacres as I love the shot down into the ravine. Shoreacres also might have the best road hole template I've seen.

I don't know how anyone can beat the Biarritz at Yale.

The best Cape hole in the world is at Mid Ocean...the rest are just imitations. 

[Bryan Lewis]

The Road (#5), the Short (#7), the Punchbowl (#8) and the Redan (#13) are all very good versions of Raynor's templates at Blue Mound G&CC. I also think the Cape (#11) is very good there -- the drive is fraught with less danger than many traditional Cape holes, but the green is a true Cape green, ala Mid-Ocean.

Phil,

The double plateau (#2) at Blue Mound is the best I've seen.  I agree with you on the Punchbowl (#8), too.  What an outstanding golf course on a basically flat piece of property!  Why can't we do more of that today?

Bryan

[Phil McDade]

Bryan:

I left out #2 (Double Plateau) and #10 (Raynor's Prize hole) from the Blue Mound list, although they have -- probably by several degrees -- the two best greens on the course. To me, getting to those greens -- the tee to green portion -- isn't all that exciting or demanding; #2 has a bit of blindness to it, but it's a tee shot that seems unnecessarily tight because of the tree line down the left and right portions of the hole. Raynor's prize is even duller -- flat land and bunkers easily avoided. Maybe Raynor drew it up that way to compensate for the wild green.

But they are two great greens.

[Bryan Lewis]

Bryan:

I left out #2 (Double Plateau) and #10 (Raynor's Prize hole) from the Blue Mound list, although they have -- probably by several degrees -- the two best greens on the course. To me, getting to those greens -- the tee to green portion -- isn't all that exciting or demanding; #2 has a bit of blindness to it, but it's a tee shot that seems unnecessarily tight because of the tree line down the left and right portions of the hole. Raynor's prize is even duller -- flat land and bunkers easily avoided. Maybe Raynor drew it up that way to compensate for the wild green.

But they are two great greens.

Phil,

I can't disagree on that.  But they are fabulous greens!

Bryan

[Phil McDade]

Bryan:

It's a good point about courses on flat pieces of land, and to me, it's one of the reasons why we (or some.... ) shouldn't be so quick to criticize Raynor's efforts to "force" templates onto the land. His templates are what make that course really interesting (in addition to a nice routing job), not so much the land.

[Mark McKeever]

The double plateau at North Shore CC is excellent.

Mark

[Bryan Lewis]

Bryan:

It's a good point about courses on flat pieces of land, and to me, it's one of the reasons why we (or some.... ) shouldn't be so quick to criticize Raynor's efforts to "force" templates onto the land. His templates are what make that course really interesting (in addition to a nice routing job), not so much the land.

Phil,

Agreed.  So why do we like the template holes and courses so much?  Part of what I love about going to a Macdonald/Raynor/Banks course is seeing the templates again and seeing if they are good or interesting.  As you are going through the round you are anticipating the Redan or the Biarritz or the Road.  That anticipation is something you don't get playing a course with all unique holes.  It is probably a topic for a separate thread.  There are a few new courses that attempt this style, like Angel's Crossing and Old Mac.  Personally I'd love it if more people would do it!

Bryan

[Phil McDade]

Bryan:

It's a perennial debate, one the folks at GCA are fond of having -- essentially boiled down to: "go with what the land gives you, or design interesting holes on bland land." Remember that the Raynor/Macdonald "templates" came into being largely because Macdonald -- a very accomplished golfer -- spent a lot of time playing courses in the U.K. and came away with a group of holes that he thought best represented golfing strategy and were interesting to play. i.e., North Berwick's Redan, Brancaster's Short, the Road Hole at TOC. So the holes themselves -- with local variations and influences -- nonetheless are holes that have held up over -- in some cases -- more than 100 years of play in their original form.

Still, I sort of wonder if templates would work on courses with land that lends itself to interesting or unique holes. This is a really fun and quirky course in Madison WI that has a bunch of interesting holes, in part because the land is so abrupt and varied; I'm not sure trying to build a dozen or so Macdonald/Raynor templates would work here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41775.0.html

[Bryan Lewis]

Bryan:

It's a perennial debate, one the folks at GCA are fond of having -- essentially boiled down to: "go with what the land gives you, or design interesting holes on bland land." Remember that the Raynor/Macdonald "templates" came into being largely because Macdonald -- a very accomplished golfer -- spent a lot of time playing courses in the U.K. and came away with a group of holes that he thought best represented golfing strategy and were interesting to play. i.e., North Berwick's Redan, Brancaster's Short, the Road Hole at TOC. So the holes themselves -- with local variations and influences -- nonetheless are holes that have held up over -- in some cases -- more than 100 years of play in their original form.

Still, I sort of wonder if templates would work on courses with land that lends itself to interesting or unique holes. This is a really fun and quirky course in Madison WI that has a bunch of interesting holes, in part because the land is so abrupt and varied; I'm not sure trying to build a dozen or so Macdonald/Raynor templates would work here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41775.0.html

Phil,

That is an excellent point on the quality of the site that I hadn't considered.  Most I have played are on pretty flat and boring land.  Although you couldn't say the Old Mac was built on a boring site!  So why do you think we like the template holes so much?  Are we just "conditioned" to like them because of the fanfare around Macdonald and Raynor courses?

Bryan

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