[Thomas Dai]

What would be examples of greens, even complete holes, that Alister MacKenzie designed for one course that he then replicated on another one of his courses?
I’m not thinking of holes by MacKenzie that others may have been inspired by or even copied. I’m thinking of holes the essential design of which MacKenzie himself may have used more than once.

Atb

[Sean_A]

The one which comes to mind quickly is the boomerang green at 7 Crystal Downs and 6 Michigan. Arguably, 14 Michigan also fits the bill.

I think 11 at Alwoodley and Moortown's Gibraltar hole are very similar.

Happy Hockey

[Niall C]

David


In a lot of newspaper reviews on new MacKenzie courses there was often reference to a hole based on the 11th at TOC.


As Sean says, his Gibraltar template was also a favourite and he did one at Pollok which is still there (or at least it was the last time I played there). Another template of his own that he was fond of was the par 4 hole where you play to a hump backed fairway and then the green was slightly offset to the left over a ditch/stream/burn to a two or three tiered green. There is a hole at Pitreavie like that and one at Pasatiempo, and I think also at Cavendish but I haven't played there.


Niall

[Mark Pearce]

The one which comes to mind quickly is the boomerang green at 7 Crystal Downs and 6 Michigan. Arguably, 14 Michigan also fits the bill.

I think 11 at Alwoodley and Moortown's Gibraltar hole are very similar.

Happy Hockey

Seaton Carew also has a boomerang green.

[Thomas Dai]

In a lot of newspaper reviews on new MacKenzie courses there was often reference to a hole based on the 11th at TOC.

Niall,

It was watching the 5th at Royal Melbourne West (3rd on this weeks composite course) in the Presidents Cup that got me pondering this matter. The 5th being inspired by the 11th at TOC, as indeed was the now numbered 4th at ANGC. And there’s a pretty similar version of 5-RMW that I play often that I’ll show you circa Buda/Sept if you have the time. I wonder which other Mackenzie holes were 11/TOC inspired?
My suspicion is that there are probably more MacKenzie self-replica holes around that we realise. Indeed I’m pondering a couple more locally with similarities to more widely well known holes that might fit the bill.
I need to look into the Pollok and Pitreavie holes you mention.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

The 15th at Cavendish and the 5th at Pasatiempo are two other examples of the 11th at St Andrews template, though the first of them does not work for a running approach at all.  Also the 3rd at Crystal Downs.  I'm sure there are several more.


They have messed with the numbering of it, but that one severe par-3 green on the Eden course at StA always reminded me of Gibraltar; that's one of the reasons I've always thought MacKenzie had more to do with the course than the record states.

[Sean_A]

The one which comes to mind quickly is the boomerang green at 7 Crystal Downs and 6 Michigan. Arguably, 14 Michigan also fits the bill.

I think 11 at Alwoodley and Moortown's Gibraltar hole are very similar.

Happy Hockey

Seaton Carew also has a boomerang green.

I think this is a hole I missed not playing the Old routing.

Happy Hockey

[JC Jones]

My first thought standing on the 3rd tee at Cypress Point was the hole played the same as the 3rd at crystal downs.  Sure, the bunkers ar Cypress are more amoeba than if Maxwell had built them, but I think the holes are functionally the same.

[Tom_Doak]

It's possible to see nearly any one-shot hole as some sort of template.  There are certainly more than four, but there are not an unlimited number of combinations, when for the most part they are only about the size of the green, the orientation of the green, the elevation of the green, and how the hazards are arranged around it.


When you get to two-shot or three-shot holes, though, the number of possible combinations is exponentially larger.

[Mike_Clayton]

Kingston Heath 15 - a hole MacKenzie built to replace the original par 4, 15th -  was supposed to capture elements of the Gibraltar hole at Moortown.

[Marty Bonnar]

The 15th at Cavendish and the 5th at Pasatiempo are two other examples of the 11th at St Andrews template, though the first of them does not work for a running approach at all.  Also the 3rd at Crystal Downs.  I'm sure there are several more.


They have messed with the numbering of it, but that one severe par-3 green on the Eden course at StA always reminded me of Gibraltar; that's one of the reasons I've always thought MacKenzie had more to do with the course than the record states.

Somewhat spookily, when I went to dig out my copy of The Links for the Winter Reading Group, it was right beside Spirit of St Andrews, so I pulled it too, trying to find any reference to MacKenzie and The Eden. I could only find one on page 10 which appears to be an added comment which says “the Eden (designed by MacKenzie and H S Colt)”.
I’m intrigued to think there might be more documentary evidence. Has Adam L found anything more? Tom D, have you anything more upon which to base your conclusion?
Cheers,
F.

[James Reader]

Isn’t the 13th at Augusta supposed to be “inspired by” the 10th at Alwoodley?

[Thomas Dai]

Isn’t the 13th at Augusta supposed to be “inspired by” the 10th at Alwoodley?

A 1934-5 photo of the green published in a booklet by ANGC contains a quote from MacKenzie about the 13th -
"This is played along the course of a brook with the final shot finishing to a green over the stream with a background of a hill slope covered with pine trees. The hole has some of the best golfing features of the Seventeenth Hole at Cypress Point, California, and the ideal hole depicted in C.B. Macdonald's book."
So self-inspired by his own work at Cypress Point (and by CBMacD)?
atb

[Tom_Doak]

Isn’t the 13th at Augusta supposed to be “inspired by” the 10th at Alwoodley?

A 1934-5 photo of the green published in a booklet by ANGC contains a quote from MacKenzie about the 13th -
"This is played along the course of a brook with the final shot finishing to a green over the stream with a background of a hill slope covered with pine trees. The hole has some of the best golfing features of the Seventeenth Hole at Cypress Point, California, and the ideal hole depicted in C.B. Macdonald's book."
So self-inspired by his own work at Cypress Point (and by CBMacD)?
atb

I can't remember the diagrams in Macdonald's book, but I believe this is a reference to MacKenzie's own winning entry in the Country Life competition, that Macdonald used for the finishing hole at Lido.  Macdonald had his own templates to follow, so he didn't sketch out many ideal holes.


But, someone sent me a copy the other day of Macdonald's write-up of Lido as it was being built, and in writing up the Short hole, he described it thus:


"The fourteenth is the short hole familiar to everyone who has played the sixth at the National and the seventeenth at Piping Rock.  During the championship at Hoylake in 1906, at a meeting of the Rules of Golf Committee, Mr. Horace Hutchinson, Mr. John L. Low and myself discussed the best character for a short hole and this particular hole was drawn out.  The great feature of the hole is the undulations on the putting green.  When the flag is in the horse-shoe in the middle of the green one should always play for a two. . . . It has been said that the short hole at the National was modelled after the short hole at Brancaster.  It is true I mentioned the short hole at Brancaster at our meeting, but the criticism of that hole is that the green is higher than the tee, so that one cannot see where the flag goes into the hole.  On all short holes the player should be able to see where the pin enters the hole."


I have always wondered where that horseshoe mound came from . . . apparently it came from a design charette with Hutchinson and Low!!

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