[Mike Sweeney]

It is interesting to see Joe's presentation with some of my old language in there. Upon reflection, I never thought of the two nines as being "unequal". The next three holes coming up are very good, and it is now clear to me that the back nine is superior to the front.

Mike,

What lead you to this conclusion?

Ken

Ken,

The 10th is a great visual hole off the tee with the tee shot focused on Bok Tower in the distance. The further right you go, the more the bunkers and tree line come into play. The second shot can be bounced in but the green is raised so it needs to be firm. The green goes away from the golfer. A great par 4.5 hole.

Next you have "Marion's" halfway house but she retired recently.

11th Redan is just fun to play. Are there better? Yes, but Mountain Lake's is the best I know of in Florida. Also great visuals.

I think the 12th is very underrated and it is NOT an original Raynor green, but the blind shot and the great green make it a tough Par 4, but again it is a fun hole.

Other reasons for preference of the back:

* Par 34, so my score is better  

* There are more "All Florida" holes in the back: 10, 11, 12, 18

* The pacing of the holes on the back has great flow (next two holes are dog right, they dog left)

* Holes 4-9 run along the road, so you do hear some part of the outside world on that side.  

* 18 is one of my favorite holes to play. Even I can't lose a ball on the width of that fairway.

* Cocktails on the porch above 18.  

[Joe Bausch]

I think Marion is still there Mike.  She won that hit the scratch off lottery big?  If so, she is still there!

[Matthew Essig]

Tee shots over water on 3 holes (6, 8, 18) 

I am not a fan of that...

However, the rest of the course looks great!!!!!!!!!

[Mike Policano]

Matt,

I played my hickories there the last few rounds. And even with my absurdly low ball flight, the water off the tee is a non-issue. Mountain Lake is a blast with hickories.

Cheers

[Ken Fry]

Ken,

The 10th is a great visual hole off the tee with the tee shot focused on Bok Tower in the distance. The further right you go, the more the bunkers and tree line come into play. The second shot can be bounced in but the green is raised so it needs to be firm. The green goes away from the golfer. A great par 4.5 hole.

Next you have "Marion's" halfway house but she retired recently.

11th Redan is just fun to play. Are there better? Yes, but Mountain Lake's is the best I know of in Florida. Also great visuals.

I think the 12th is very underrated and it is NOT an original Raynor green, but the blind shot and the great green make it a tough Par 4, but again it is a fun hole.

Other reasons for preference of the back:

* Par 34, so my score is better  

* There are more "All Florida" holes in the back: 10, 11, 12, 18

* The pacing of the holes on the back has great flow (next two holes are dog right, they dog left)

* Holes 4-9 run along the road, so you do hear some part of the outside world on that side.  

* 18 is one of my favorite holes to play. Even I can't lose a ball on the width of that fairway.

* Cocktails on the porch above 18.  

Mike,

With your knowledge of Mountain Lake I'm obviously curious of your opinions.

I never thought which side I enjoyed more.  The road noise does take away a little on the front nine.  The 5th hole was a bit jarring to me the first time we played it because of the tight nature to the front guard house!  After a 3 month layoff, I'm not guaranteeing where my 4 iron might go!

I really like holes 1-3.  Great options from the tee on all three holes and the greens on 1 and 3 really make those holes interesting.  5 is great just because you get to play a Biarittz where both sides of the valley are maintained as green.  I really enjoy the approach shot on 8 whether going for the green in two or three shots.

For whatever reason the 10th hole fit my eye very well.  On one of our days we played 36 holes, I birdied 10 twice with the total length of putts about 6 feet.

I know you mentioned the 12th green was altered from the original.  Is the location the same?  I really enjoyed the split nature of the green and the variety different pin locations can provide there.

For me:

Front nine holes 1, 2, 3, 5 and 8 stood out.
Back nine holes 10, 11, 12, 15, 17 and 18.

So I guess by that tabulation, the back nine is slightly favored.  I agree that the transition from green to next tee flows a little nicer on the back nine also.

Actually, a Manhattan on the back porch does sound nice!

Ken

[Mike Sweeney]

Ken,

I would also add #6 from the left tee. Even if we are playing the middle tees, we used to play this from the back left tee as it was a cool angle from over there. Think Joe is not all the way over there with this picture:


Would love to get on a plane tomorrow but alas, work and family intrude!

[scott_wood]

Confirming that Marion is still working, in her young 80s, and enjoying every day..........

[Joe Bausch]

#13. "Fade:  Par 4 (387 yards).

From the IMO:

Vintage holes were often named for a shape of shot required during their play and Fade is the perfect tee shot on this hole. The picture below shows the landing area. A drive down the right side of the hole takes the approach bunker out of play and allows a bump and run shot to the green to catch the downslope in the approach and roll onto the Redan-like green.

I really enjoy the look from the tee on this dogleg right par 4.  It is hard to tell that the bunker to the left is actually through the fw, and the line for most is over the right two bunkers.



Ideal drive gives a look like this:



This view looking back from the front of the green:



From over the green:



#14. "Draw":  Par 4 (391 yards).

Nice to have a Draw after a Fade.   

From the IMO:

To complete this perfect pacing of holes and shots, the golfer finishes on Draw, thus a sequence of Blind, Fade, Draw. The player is tempted to cut the corner, but risk being blocked out by trees on the left on the approach to the green. The putting surface is a hogback, another Raynor favorite as in the 17th at Fishers Island. Players may well want to position their tee shot depending on whether or not the pin is left or right of the hogback in the green.

Once again, position off the tee determines aerial versus ground options at #14.

Tee view:



Approach view:



#15. "Punchbowl":  Par 4 (324 yards).

Nifty little punchbowl hole.  Perhaps my 2nd favorite of this template just behind the one at LuLu.

From the IMO:

At 324 yards, Mountain Lake’s 15th is probably the shortest of any Macdonald/Raynor/Banks Punchbowl green. On the author’s first season of play at Mountain Lake, an iron and a wedge was all that was needed to navigate Mountain Lake’s Punchbowl. However, between the recent Hurricanes and tree clearing, the hole has a more open and forgiving feel to it, and the left side has opened up. However, the creek on the right will still gobble up balls from the golfer seeking the preferred right side of the fairway where the green is less blind. In a recent club scramble from the 307 yard Blue tee on a downwind day the author played a driver and put it pin high left of the green, where there was a very interesting 'bank shot' against the Punchbowl. Thus, under the right conditions, it becomes a very interesting Par 3 ½ with today’s technology.

Below you can see some of the extreme Punchbowl features in this green on #15. Raynor’s variations on this theme relate to the amount of fairway/approach area incorporated into the punchbowl. The Fox Chapel, Westhampton, and Chicago varieties feature mainly punchbowl 'green' areas while the National’s encompasses a significant amount of fairway and approach. Vintage photography shows the original 15th at Mountain Lake to have been a punchbowl. It is difficult for any architectural fan to walk away from Mountain Lake’s Punchbowl without an opinion of how it could be adapted to varying playing conditions. The author would suggest playing all club tournaments from the Blue tee.

Tee view:



Typical approach shot view:



From just short and left of the green, where I would like to see a couple of things happen:  1)   mowing out the green farther; and 2) have another hurricane come along and selectively remove the trees behind the green except for the big oak, which would give a neat view of the lake and the island 8th tee box and that fairway).



From the back edge of the punchbowl:



We'll try to finish up the tour this weekend, worst case on Monday.

[Mike Sweeney]

#13. "Fade:  Par 4 (387 yards).

#14. "Draw":  Par 4 (391 yards).

#15. "Punchbowl":  Par 4 (324 yards).

After 2 long fours in 10 and 12, the flow of Mountain Lake kicks in here with fade, draw and punch. The place has a great pace, ebb and flow.

None of these holes are great in my opinion, but they are all fun, especially after a long plane ride. The Punchbowl might be better as a drivable hole. It is an easy hole to par but hard to birdie unless you run up to see where the pin is located that day.

Tough hole coming up.

[Ronald Montesano]

Joe, check your PM.

Ron M.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe, check your PM.

Ron M.

Big time thanks Mountain Man!

Joe (and Mike S)

[Ronald Montesano]

A Mountain Man has a soft spot for Mountain Lake, of course.

[Joe Bausch]

A Mountain Man has a soft spot for Mountain Lake, of course.

But of course!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

ML is my single most fun place to play golf. I miss it terribly. It is not the best but really is the most fun to play.

[Keith Phillips]

ML is my single most fun place to play golf. I miss it terribly. It is not the best but really is the most fun to play.

For a few years I have been looking at buying a second home and joining a great club in Florida - posts like Tiger's make me think I may be better off just flying into Mountain Lake 5 or 6 times per winter, hanging at the Colony House and playing what looks like an exceptionally fun course!

[Ken Fry]

ML is my single most fun place to play golf. I miss it terribly. It is not the best but really is the most fun to play.

For a few years I have been looking at buying a second home and joining a great club in Florida - posts like Tiger's make me think I may be better off just flying into Mountain Lake 5 or 6 times per winter, hanging at the Colony House and playing what looks like an exceptionally fun course!

Keith,

I'll echo Tiger's comments.  Mountain Lake is not the hardest golf course you'll ever play.  It's fun.  When I leave the cold of winter for a few rounds of golf, I'm rusty as hell and don't need to be beat up by a typical water covered, swamp strewn, critter infested brush Florida golf course.  If I were at the point in my life where I could get away 5 or 6 times per winter, Mountain Lake would be very high on my list.

Ken

[Joe Bausch]

#16. "Carry":  Par 4 (432 yards).

Vintage aerials showed bite off bunkers left in the drive zone, a bunker 'through' the fairway on the right and a Carry bunker in the approach. The green retains its original slope down from front to back, showing Raynor’s appreciation, if not requirement, for of playing the game on the ground. The fairway has also been widened to its more original size.

Tee view:



Approach shot view:



From long and right of the green:



#17. "Eden":  Par 3 (177 yards).

Silva has some questions as to if the 17th was Raynor’s version of The Eden, and like many restorations, the data was not complete. However, there was enough information to assume that it was indeed The Eden hole. The 17th green was moved because of two huge live oaks that were to the rear of the previous green. The old green had real problems growing grass and no one thought good grass could be grown on it in its current location. Moving the green left required cutting down a few smaller trees for good sun and as an added bonus, it set up the proper positioning of the bunkers against the background of Mountain Lake. Mountain Lake’s Eden has a raised green with a steep slope down from back to front, guarded by Hill, Strath and Shell bunkers and framed to the rear by Mountain Lake instead of the Eden River. The 11th at Fishers Island may be the most well known of the Raynor Eden’s as it features Long Island Sound in the background.

The balance of Mountain Lake’s Par 3’s is classic Raynor:

5th Biarritz - 211 yards
9th Short -146 yards (Blue tee 110 yards)
11th Redan - 181 yards
17th Eden 177 yards

Tee view on the 17th:



From the back left corner of the green:



#18. "Colony House":  Par 4 (413 yards).

From the IMO:

The 18th at Mountain Lake is a hole that combines great vistas, water, sand, fairway width, trees, and an interesting green into a spectacular finish. The original tee on eighteen played the hole as a dogleg left Par 5. Today, framed by the spectacular Colony House, the home hole features a tee shot over Mountain Lake to a generous fairway. However the width of Raynor fairways can often be deceiving as is the case at #18. Too far left IN THE FAIRWAY, and the golfer risk being blocked out by a tree in the left rough. Too far right IN THE FAIRWAY and the golfer brings the front right bunker of the uphill 18th green into play, thus forcing a difficult aerial shot.

Tee view (originally this was a par 5 with the tee near the current 17 green):



The vistas on 18 of Mountain Lake and Bok Tower distract the member’s guest giving the advantage to members on the finishing hole.



Approach view:



While some may mistake the 18th green for a Double Plateau, the closing green is actually an adaptation of The Maiden, another Raynor mainstay. When the pin is on the left, a running shot can be played. However, when it is tucked behind the front right bunker, an aerial shot is required for birdie opportunities.

One of 18 interesting greens at Mountain Lake.



In conclusion from the IMO:

Playing at 6264 yards and a Par of 71 in 1972, Mountain Lake now plays at 6621 yards, a Par 70. Mountain Lake is clearly not a long course. However similar to Yale, Raynor used the natural terrain where many of the par fours play uphill adding yardage to the scorecard on this 'short course'. As with any 'renovation' there will always be conversations and questions about the old versus the new. Is it correct? Does it adapt to the modern player? Why did they take out this tree? However, the key to any restoration, interpretive or functional, is the architect and committee need to do the research to understand what was there and why it was changed over the years? Silva and the Mountain Lake committee clearly did the research prior to the restoration. Silva then added yardage to key holes and reduced the Par, allowing the restored Mountain Lake to play as it was originally intended by the founders of Mountain Lake – a classic members course, now in the modern era.

If you are a Raynor fan, heck even if you aren't, Mountain Lake is a real treat.

[John Mayhugh]

I played my hickories there the last few rounds. And even with my absurdly low ball flight, the water off the tee is a non-issue. Mountain Lake is a blast with hickories.

Looking forward to giving that a try. Which tees do you use with hickories?

[Bill_McBride]

The Eden is a nice looking hole, but as usual the bunkering is wrong, Strath is way off to the side.  I wonder this was almost always the case when replica Edens were built....

[Alex Lagowitz]

Was the 8th hole green, which was once a par 3, a reverse redan?
It appears that is the slope of the green, and we know it was once a par 3.

So, what were the original par 3s?
I'd be surprised if there was a reverse redan and a redan in the same routing as par 3s.

The short was said to have been built by Banks after the fact.
Where was the short originally?

Is the redan par 3 original to the routing?

[Mike Sweeney]

Joe,

Beautiful tour. One thing that was missed the first time was there was a Himalayas putting course near where the white car is parked in this photo. There is a small putting green there now that is rarely used.



Thanks again.

[Mike Sweeney]

ML is my single most fun place to play golf. I miss it terribly. It is not the best but really is the most fun to play.

My Mountain Lake buddy Tiger Bernhardt is having a tough week and weekend. Next week there is a group of GCAers and others headed to Mountain Lake and I can't attend. It would be great if the group can say a prayer or two on the 18th hole tee for our buddy and maybe wear a little purple and gold.

God bless Katie Bernhardt:

http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/johnbernhardt


So for the good news! My dad is full of smiles and thumbs up, great spirits and he is comfortable. He is not struggling to breath and is resting alot. We have a great room in a new part of the hospital. Finally, he is stable. Although he is receiving alot of oxygen, everything is stable and has been all day. I will post updates as I learn more. Thanks for the support and prayers.

Katie

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

I don't know your group, but, i think they'd enjoy two days at ML.

It's not that far a drive from Streamsong and it's not that far from the airport.

Is there some inconvenience, sure, but I think that's more than offset by the course and play.

It's something you should do if you're going to Streamsong for 4 days or so

when will you be at streamsong ?

I'll be there in March

[Pete Buczkowski]

Just saw this thread and was struck by how green the course looks.  The contrast with the dormant rough, lush fairways, and lighter greens is the starkest I've seen.  Always thought this was one of the "best" courses for a mid handicapper.  You have bold shots, realistic carries, interesting greens, hole variety, moderate legnth, and a tight walkable routing. 

I agree with Mike that 10-12 are the highlight of the course.  8 and 9 are great lead ins that offer a chance at birdie, followed by a nice stretch of 4 diverse four pars that are endlessly entertaining. The halfway house on 11 tee is a great spot as well!

Thanks for the link on Tiger, He is a class act.

[jeffwarne]

ML is my single most fun place to play golf. I miss it terribly. It is not the best but really is the most fun to play.

For a few years I have been looking at buying a second home and joining a great club in Florida - posts like Tiger's make me think I may be better off just flying into Mountain Lake 5 or 6 times per winter, hanging at the Colony House and playing what looks like an exceptionally fun course!

If Mountain Lake had no Colony House, and was public, and presented in the same condition it is in, what peak season greens fee rate do you think it could command? In its current location

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