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Nick Church

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I'm attempting to plan a trip for 2-4 guys to Scotland (St. Andrews, etc).

EDIT *** The plan is to go this summer (June or July) ***

This would be my first attempt at international golf travel.  Even after lurking & reading GCA for several years, I have to admit I'm intimidated.  Especially because the other golfers are looking to me to make the plans (& costs).

My assumption was that given my lack of experience, I need to book through a travel company.

However, I have a friend who is ROTFL as I type this because he's made this trip before & did so on the fly more or less.  His basic pitch is that I stay at Dunvegan Hotel (...which I've previously read & heard very good things), and book the golf on my own.  He argues "...With one call you can book tee times at the old course, new course, kings barn, jubilee, the duke and castle course".

I understand that a person may go on the wait list at St. Andrews first thing in the AM, and likely play sometime that day.  However, I am not all comfortable selling that gamble to 3 other guys, ... especially since I have no credibility in doing so.

My guys are willing to spend on the golf & pubs, and save on the hotels.  We're big boys and don't need hand-holding or chauffeurs, but since we're all woefully unfamiliar with Scotland ... it seems prudent to pay for the services for good golf tour operator or agent.

My plea is for any advice --- be it a slap across my cheek, or a simple endorsement / recommendation.

Thank you all.

Nick
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:49:31 PM by Nick Church »

Mark_Rowlinson

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Start by getting a taste for haggis. It is wonderful stuff and a good partner for malt whisky.

Jud_T

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Nick,

If you're going to be based in St. Andrews I would definitely say Carnoustie is a must play.  It's just an hour (?) up the road.  Kingsbarns is also certainly worth playing depending on your budget.  Personally I'm sorry that I missed the New, Elie and Crail.  It's also worth having a drink at the Old Course Hotel in the bar overlooking the Old Course.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:30:17 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Niall C

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Nick

You'll no doubt get offers to organise a tour for you but as you say you can just as easily do it yourself with the added bonus that it would be easier to re-arrange games if required. With four of you it would be dead easy to hire a car and get around.

Unless you are looking at only the big Open venues you should be able to easily organise a game on one of the "lesser lights" should you fail in the Old Course ballot. BTW, the New, the Jubilee and the Eden come into this category although frankly they all offer great golf. Unless you are desperate to play certain venues such as the Open courses, then there's no need to pay big bucks. The only time you may want to have a solid booking would be at the weekend.

Niall

Jason Topp

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My first visit consisted of a stay in St. Andrews for the entire week.  I think it is the ideal way to visit because you get to know the town and do not spend a ton of time checking in and out of hotels.  My advice:

1.  Rent a car - at least for a portion of the trip.  This brings Gleneagles, North Berwick, Carnoustie, Elie, Lundin Links, Levin, Gullane, Muirfield Crail, Kingsbarns and others all withing a reasonable distance.  The country is small enough that my father and I drove to Turberry, played 36 and drove back in one long day.

2.  Use the ballot or the early morning line to get on the Old Course.  

3.  Set up your other big time courses in advance

4.  Fill in the remainder of the trip with lesser courses - which are a delight and cost much less than the main tourist stops.

5.  Get one of the Links Trust passes for the other courses at St. Andrews.  I recall them being reasonably priced.  Playing the New with the prospect of playing otthe Old is magical.

6.  Get advice from others regarding what courses require advance planning and which can be played spur of the moment.

7. Others have recommended this travel consultant http://www.fergusongolf.com/
  His advice looks accurate based om my experience.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:27:12 AM by Jason Topp »

Shane Wright

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Nick - PM sent.  There are a lot of super experienced folks on here who I'm sure will have great advice.  I'm happy to help as well. 

Shane

jeffwarne

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Nick

You'll no doubt get offers to organise a tour for you but as you say you can just as easily do it yourself with the added bonus that it would be easier to re-arrange games if required. With four of you it would be dead easy to hire a car and get around.

Unless you are looking at only the big Open venues you should be able to easily organise a game on one of the "lesser lights" should you fail in the Old Course ballot. BTW, the New, the Jubilee and the Eden come into this category although frankly they all offer great golf. Unless you are desperate to play certain venues such as the Open courses, then there's no need to pay big bucks. The only time you may want to have a solid booking would be at the weekend.

Niall

Nick,
Your friend is mostly right.
You can do it all yourself. The question is do you have the time, and would you enjoy the process?
Booking with an operator isn't always more expensive, depending on what you want to do,I've just found I can usually stay more affordable by staying at B&B's they might not bother with.However, some are more comfortable using an operator, which makes perfect sense.
based on your desire to stay in one place, getting on the Old via the lottery shouldn't be a problem, and the courses tend to be flexible knowing that is a possibility.
See Jason's advice above
PM me if you have any questions.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Howard Riefs

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7. Others have recommended this travel consultant http://www.fergusongolf.com/
  His advice looks accurate based om my experience.

There's also GCA's own Bart Bradley:

http://www.bradleygolftravel.com/


"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

David_Tepper

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Nick C. -

In this age of the internet & e-mail, planning the trip on your own is easily done. A copy of Allan Ferguson's guide to golf travel in Scotland would be very helpful for doing so. You can read about the book here:

http://www.fergusongolf.com/book.htm

Assuming you will be there for 7-8 days, I would encourage you to spend your time in just two of these three areas: Fife, East Lothian or the Ayrshire coast. There is plenty of golf available to you in those areas.  

Good luck.

DT  
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 12:16:57 PM by David_Tepper »

Anders Rytter

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I've only traveled to Scotland once to play golf, but anyway here are my 5cents. We booked ourselves.

1. In mid October we entered the ballot 2½ days for the Old Course, no luck. we waited in the line from before 7am and  got the two last single tee-times.

2. I wouldn't miss the chance to walk on TOC on sunday

3. I would definately play North Berwick again.

Might chime in again but have to run.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:09:42 PM by Anders Rytter »

hhuffines

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 12:11:00 PM »
Ditto on Bradley Golf Travel.  Great advice, great service and I promise they will save you money in the long run!

Nick Church

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 02:05:16 PM »
Thank you all so much for the replies & PM's!

Ferguson book ordered.

It's early yet, but given there's more than just myself to please, I'm leaning towards Ferguson, Bradley, or similar.

Thank you again, and keep them coming.

Nick
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:25:49 PM by Nick Church »

Anders Rytter

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2013, 02:10:11 PM »
Nick,
Here's a link to a very similar discussion

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53554.0.html

Gib_Papazian

Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2013, 02:56:58 PM »
You would be wise to camp out at least four days at the Mallards Hotel in Gullane - the rooms are comfortable with a small Pub downstairs. A combo bar restaurant called The Old Clubhouse is a three minute walk up the street and the food is damned good. There is a more formal restaurant attached to a hotel on the main road. I think it is called "The Golf Inn," but my memory is a bit sketchy these days.

Mallards is right across from all three Gullane tracks and Muirfield is just down the way if you can swing a tee time. Archerfield is right next to Muirfield and North Berwick is 10 minutes away. That will keep you busy for a few days. Glen Golf Course (North Berwick) looked pretty neat  - a quirky shorty right on the water. Make sure you play North Berwick at least twice - it is a magical place much like Prestwick or Lahinch.

I've got to echo another poster about a Sunday stroll on TOC. Bring a putter and a couple balls, nobody will give you a hard time. The Ladies Putting Course after dinner with the homies is mandatory; bring a flask of Single Malt.

When you get over to the West Coast, Troon is last priority. It has four interesting holes and 14 ducks. Plus, the club is run by a bunch of assholes who make no secret of their disdain for Yanks. You might want to play The Portland Course, it is a lot of fun and terribly underrated. Whitten is not a fan of Turnberry, but we liked it well enough to stay over and play it twice. We did not play the Kintyre Course, but I've been told it is worth a go.

My friend told me recently that we screwed up not arranging a game at Western Gailes - I'm sure somebody on this board has a detailed opinion. One other "name" place you might consider is Gleneagles. Our group split up and - despite my childhood buddy having won the Scottish Open on the King's - I chose The Queen's Course on the recommendation of a close friend who knows my taste. It was wonderful . . . . The hotel is ungodly expensive, but we split the rooms and to be honest, staying a couple nights in a cha-cha 5-Star was nice after bunking out in a series of marginal B&B's. Scottish B&B's generally suck in comparison to Irish and English ones. Sorry.

As for the Centenary Course, I wouldn't walk across the street while in Scotland to play a Nicklaus Course if Nicole Kidman was going to caddy for me naked. Depending on how much time you have to go north, Goodale is a member at Brora and Dornoch - Nairn is supposed to be terrific, too.

All this stated, you've made a life-changing mistake if you skip Cruden Bay. We flew into Heathrow and as it took three hours to clear customs, missed our connector to Aberdeen to meet the rest of the group. By the time we got it all sorted out and finally arrived, The Redhead and I had not slept in 34 hours. I jammed to Cruden Bay and the plan was for Her Redness to pass out in the little hotel while I met everybody for their 2nd round.

We pulled into the parking lot and I could scarcely believe my eyes. It is every bit as spectacular a sight as the first view of Portrush from the saddle road. Redhead opened her eyes, took one look, put on shoes and grabbed her camera. I swear to God the colors at Cruden Bay seem brighter . . . . it is worth crossing an ocean just to go round and round that course.

Depending on how you get to the U.K., playing golf around London is not to be missed. 36 holes on Sunningdale Old & New was incredibly memorable. Heathland golf is a completely unique experience; wandering around a course with the heather in bloom will lower your blood pressure by 50 points. Start by flying into Gatwick, Heathrow is nearly as big a mess as JFK.    
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 12:33:35 AM by Gib Papazian »

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2013, 03:03:34 PM »
I remember a great post by Brent Hutto.
Post #4
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47996.0.html


Bart Bradley

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 03:09:07 PM »
Ditto on Bradley Golf Travel.  Great advice, great service and I promise they will save you money in the long run!

I agree with this guy  ;).

A small agency will likely save you money and make your trip better.  Have a great time.

Bart

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2013, 03:19:26 PM »
If you can fly into Edinburgh with United or even Manchester with BA, American or Continental.

Book a car

Stay in a decent B&B, Tripadvisor will point you in the right direction.

Spend all your nights in St. Andrews and avoid September which is very busy with R&A events, don't under estimate the quality of second tier courses. Have dinner one night at the Peat Inn.

Bart is a good guy.
Cave Nil Vino

Greg Taylor

Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2013, 03:19:42 PM »
Book your must play tee times and plan your "nice to haves" around it... you can do it yourself really... If your on a budget then it's the only way.

Brad Wilbur

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2013, 03:44:23 PM »
Two thoughts about cars:
     1)  Automatic transmission.  Unless you're used to driving on the left, don't compound the problem with having to shift gears with a different hand.  More expensive, but worth it.
     2)GPS   Not many of the common American units have Europe, but it's well worth the investment.  When it tells you to take the third exit in the next roundabout, that is valuable info.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2013, 03:59:07 PM »
Nick,

One other thing - and I want you to take this deadly seriously. Choose ONE member of your group to do the driving. It takes a little time to get acclimated to driving on the other side of the road, shifting left-handed through traffic circles. If there are four drivers - all with scant experience - you've just increased the chance of a bad fuck-up by 1000%.

And NEVER drive if you've had more than one pint. Trust me, it is easy to revert to auto-pilot and make a dangerous mistake - plus, if something goes wrong, your first reaction will be to swerve right, which of course is the fastest way to get killed in a head-on.

This includes walking around. Some insane number of foreign pedestrians are hurt or killed every year in the U.K. by not looking left at the crosswalk. Add three or four pints while chatting up the local talent and you're begging to be a fly on the windshield.

The advice to arrive in coat & tie is a terrific point. My friend David and I showed up at Muirfield like that and actually talked our way on. It can be done, believe me. Club Secretaries are far more inclined to bend rules for respectful Americans who are properly deferential. Let's put it in a less decorous way: Some (not all, of course) are pompous pufferfish who love to have their asses kissed by Yanks. If you kiss ass, you get to play the course. If not, then not.

Don't bother contacting the Club Professional, they are like terrorized serfs over there and normally too frightened to use the bathroom without asking the Secretary's permission.  

If you cannot secure a tee time, write a very formal, polite letter to the Club Secretary well in advance. This usually does the trick, particularly if you demonstrate a knowledge of the club history. I normally include in my letter whether it would be possible to have a look at some of the archives; I've never been turned down. English and Scottish Club Secretaries never ignore a formally written letter - I think it is cultural. You'd be shocked the privileges I've been afforded just by not acting like a typical American.        
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 12:37:29 AM by Gib Papazian »

Mike Feeney

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 04:19:55 PM »
Scotland is the size of Maine...so getting from region to region is not impossible.  But, the state of Maine is pretty big. So, if you are going to Scotland for 7 days or less you should pick 1 region and enjoy it to the fullest and don't give up time for traveling.  If you are going for 10 or more days you can cover 2 regions.  Here is a great map showing you where all the links course are.

If you are going to Scotland you want to play links golf...inland golf is not that much different than US golf.  Links golf is usually cold and windy...but it is fantastic.

There are 3 concentrated areas of links golf in Scotland.

---St. Andrews / Fife
---The Highlands
---The Southwest (Turnberry/Troon/Prestwick)

So, if you are going to Scotland the 1st question you must ask is, is St. Andrews a must play?   To most people the home of golf is a requirement so that region is a must.

While playing the famous courses should be part of your trip...going off the beaten path is my favorite.

In St. Andrews area — you will want to play Ladybank & Crail...also, an expensive but great newer course is Kingsbarns
In the Highlands — Dornoch is the famous course but Brora is great....castle stuart, & nairn.
Between St. Andrews & Tain is — Cruden Bay (REALLY great), Aberdeen, & Moray

Hope this helps.

Mike

Eric Smith

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2013, 04:30:22 PM »
One of the highlights of my visit to St Andrews was staying at Montague Guest House. http://www.montaguehouse.com/

The owners, Andrew and Gillian, make it all just right. From the front door you are only minutes to the first tee of the Old Course and a prettier stroll there isn't.

David_Tepper

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2013, 04:38:57 PM »
"There are 3 concentrated areas of links golf in Scotland.

---St. Andrews / Fife
---The Highlands
---The Southwest (Turnberry/Troon/Prestwick)"

Mike F. -

There would have to be 4 areas worth considering, as  East Lothian (east of Edinburgh) offers Muirfield, the 3 courses at Gullane, North Berwick, Kilspindie, Longniddry and new courses at Archerfield and the Reniassance Club. All these courses are within a 20-30 stretch of coastline and are not much more than 40 miles from downtown Eidinburgh.

DT  

« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 04:48:58 PM by David_Tepper »

Jud_T

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2013, 04:48:11 PM »
I forget how far it is, but if you're not just staying around St. Andrews, Prestwick is a must play.  Personally I'd play it over Turnberry.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Nick Church

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Re: Plea for help advice on inaugural trip to Scotland (please & thank you)
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2013, 04:53:08 PM »
One important note --- our plan is to go this summer, probably June, maybe July.

That may make TOC fairly difficult unless it is only 2 of us.  Presently, there are 2 additional interests, but both want parameters of which days and cost.  Thanks to GCA members that work is underway.

Taking your advice, I'm planning to stick to the East / Central region.

So far, North Berwick is added to the target list & possibly Cruden Bay.

I've also ordered the Ferguson book as well as sent an email to Bradley Golf.

Thanks again all!