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Frank Giordano

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Pinehurst #2: par 4 fifth hole being changed to par 5
« on: January 12, 2013, 05:29:15 PM »
In an interview with Dick Harmon and Dave Marr when I was writing the history of the River Oaks Country Club, the subject of changing a golf hole to create a par 5 out of a par 4 came up.  The head of the club's greens committee apparently believed you couldn't have a first class "championship" course unless it was rated a par 72.  River Oaks  is a Donald Ross design, one of only two in Texas.  Dave Marr's question about the advisability of the change still resonates in my head, even more so since I've committed myself to the art of painting.  "Who's going to correct the Mona Lisa?"  In fact, Joe Finger got the job.

To his credit, Finger attempted to talk the club out of what he considered a very imprudent move, pointing out to them that other Ross courses, such as Wannamoisett and Waterbury Country Club had pars of 69.  But the club insisted and, in the view of Jackie Burke, who grew up on the course where his father was the club's first pro, they "turned the best par 4 in the city of Houston into the worst par 5 in the state of Texas."  Or something as elegantly disdainful as that.

Many on this board are familiar with the change of the par 4 fifth hole at Pinehurst #2.  To many who've played it, the hole is one of the planet's very greatest par 4s.  For Coore and Crenshaw, whose reverence for Donald Ross and his work, the USGA's plan to make the fifth hole into a par 5 must have brought up some enormous gulps.   I can only imagine … no, I really can't imagine what the conversations were like.

What are your thoughts about revising this masterpiece?  And, are there other examples of truly great holes being changed in so essential a way, for any reason at all?

Michael George

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Re: Pinehurst #2: par 4 fifth hole being changed to par 5
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 06:00:39 PM »
I believe they are only changing the pars for the US Open.  When I was there 2 months ago, the pars were the same for normal play. 5 is simply one of the greatest par 4 holes in the world.

However, I think the change was necessary for the Open.  They have nowhere to move #4 back. Plus, with the severity of the green on 5, it could be a great risk/reward par 5.  If you miss your approach in the wrong area on the green complex, it could be very penalizing. I think it will work well as a par 5 in this regard.  No matter what the par, it is one of the truly great green complexes ever built and it will protect par for the USGA.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Pinehurst #2: par 4 fifth hole being changed to par 5
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 06:21:27 PM »
Here's an old thread on the topic with pinehurst.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51395.0.html

The quote about a hole changing from a par 4 to a par 5 and instantly becoming a poor hole because of a scorecard seems ridiculous.  That being said I can see people's response to the hole changing.

JWL

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Re: Pinehurst #2: par 4 fifth hole being changed to par 5
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 07:05:28 PM »
I am very curious about this change.  I am trying to imagine where any additonal length on the hole could be found, as my recollection is that the tee I played the last time I was there backed up on the former World Golf Hall of Fame property.  However, I must be mistaken unless the new back tee is now in what is that parcel of ground.   Can anyone tell me where the new back tee is located...how much length was added.   It wasn't a really long par 4 previously, but like everyone has stated, a really difficult crowned green to hit.   However, playing even long right there is a back stop hillside and a small swale that will gobble up balls but give a realtively easy pitch back into the green slope for eagles and birdies.   I haven't been there in a while, so things may be a bit different since the renovation, so I am curious about this change to Ross' work.  Thanks

Will Lozier

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Re: Pinehurst #2: par 4 fifth hole being changed to par 5
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 07:28:01 PM »
Royal St. George's 4th played as a par-5 two Opens ago - in 2003 - for some odd reason.  I believe it was still played at the 496-yard length which made it all the more awkward.  In 2011, the R&A had come to their senses realizing it is a world-class two-shotter.

Cheers

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Pinehurst #2: par 4 fifth hole being changed to par 5
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2013, 09:43:20 PM »
Jim
I paced off 100 yards to the back tee directly behind the existing tees - elevated above the cart path
Mike
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jason Thurman

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Re: Pinehurst #2: par 4 fifth hole being changed to par 5
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2013, 10:45:13 PM »
I was there in September. They definitely found room to stretch the tee back. As Mike mentioned, it's some 100 yards behind the current back tee.

The change is only for the Open and will make that hole a monster for the pros. It's a total non-issue. I believe the plan is to play 4, 8, and 16 as par 4s. Either way, it's all arbitrary.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.