[Frank M]

Hello everyone,

Can you build a world-class championship golf course on 135 acres? I know it's been done (i.e. Wannamoisett), but can it be done again?

When I say build a course, I'm not talking a members course, I mean a destination type course ala Bandon, Kohler etc. A course the public, everyday golfer would travel to or a course that would attract the travelling golfer.

What sort of land requirements and considerations need to be met? Is there a minimum size you would necessarily need? Driving Range not necessary, but if it was would more land be too?

[Philippe Binette]

135 acres, world class destination course... on a good site (not too hilly), no weird corners on the property and no houses around (so out of bounds doesn't mean broken windows.  the answer is yes, definitelty... but some architectural trick (or genius) might be necessary

[Tom_Doak]

Frank:

Why the hell did you include the word "championship" in your question?  What does it mean to you?

There's no way to answer your question without understanding the meaning of that.  Philippe answered it only by omitting the key word.

P.S.  I guess it is technically possible to say yes to your question, since Kingston Heath is a world class championship course on 125 acres.  But in most places today you wouldn't be able to build fairways so close to the fences, or so close to each other.  Also, Kingston Heath works because there are no cart paths and players generally walk down the middle of the fairways.  If you have to create the proper safety buffer not from the adjacent fairway but from the cart path along the near side of it, then 135 acres is probably not going to be enough, unless the course is 6500 yards or less.

[Frank M]

Philippe and Tom thank you for the insights.

@Tom - I use the word championship in the general sense as most average golfers probably wouldn't flock to a destination golf course that is not a "championship" golf course. I guess from my point of view that would mean something nearing the 7000 yard mark and at minimum par 70.

When it comes to cart paths, with 135 acres, in my mind I was thinking none. Walking only with cart or two for med condition. I also mean 135 acres completely devoted to golf course (no maintenance, clubhouse etc).

[Phil McDade]

Frank:

I think arbitrary notions of championship golf -- 7,000 yards minimum, par of XX, attempting to build something that will be perceived as "championship" -- is the kind of thinking that led to a lot of mediocrity in golf course design post WWII (when lots of factors -- available land, growing wealth and population, growing popularity of the game -- led to exponential growth in golf courses being built.) To me, it's a backward-looking way to approach building a course -- let's start with the end result, and then work back to see if we can build a course that fits those criteria.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Frank,

Have you ever seen the Bandon courses billed as "championship" layouts?

[Wade Whitehead]

How many acres does Merion East cover?

WW

[JR Potts]

The architects would know a whole lot better re construction but Merion is on 120 something acres, right?   So, as Tom states. You can build the course on that acreage.  However, if you're truly talking about a "Championship" course, with ideal room for bleachers, hospitality tents, gallery flow, restrooms and all the other stuff you need to host a "Championship" the way modern spectators and governing bodies routinely expect/demand, you need at least 200 acres.  Probably 220.

[Frank M]

Frank,

Have you ever seen the Bandon courses billed as "championship" layouts?

Jeff,

Not directly, but I would hazard to say there is a general consensus that it is.

Indirectly, they make no attempts to disqualify the fact that they held the 2011 US Am, 2007 mid am, 2006 curtis cup, and 31 championships overall. I personally don't think there is a doubt courses which are perceived not to be of "championship" calibre, of any sort (ladies, junior. mens, senior etc), are not as highly regarded as those which are.

I am not really debating the merits of what the average golfer believes to be championship quality or even f it necessary, simply asking whether a course on 135 acres would be able to fit the bill of "championship" calibre.

[RJ_Daley]

Trying to channel my inner Kavanaugh:
A quarter, nickel, or dime will fit in the slot of a jukebox.  But, will music come out? 

[Andy Stamm]

Indirectly, they make no attempts to disqualify the fact that they held the 2011 US Am, 2007 mid am, 2006 curtis cup, and 31 championships overall.

Bandon has never hosted the US Am.

[Jeff Bertch]

Seminole Golf Club covers 140 acres.

Whether it is a championship layout, you tell me. All I know is that I saw Dustin Johnson shoot a 75 last year in the Member-Pro. On the contrary, Tiger shot 63 the only time he played. That said, the big difference was wind conditions and pin placements.

On a property like this, you must be very efficient (a la Donald Ross) and the term "genius" does come to mind. A lot of the strategy at Seminole derives from the Sand Ridges running on the West side of the property and along the ocean. These would be environmentally protected if you tried to build today.

To answer the question bluntly: I believe 135 is too small to build a "championship" course because it leaves the architect no room to find/design the best holes. It would really be pushing it to build a 7,000 yard course on 135 acres.

[Frank M]

Indirectly, they make no attempts to disqualify the fact that they held the 2011 US Am, 2007 mid am, 2006 curtis cup, and 31 championships overall.

Bandon has never hosted the US Am.

The 2011 Us Am Public Links? I was pretty sure it did...also just noticed public links wasn't written.

@JBertch - Thanks!

[Jon Wiggett]

To answer the question bluntly: I believe 135 is too small to build a "championship" course because it leaves the architect no room to find/design the best holes. It would really be pushing it to build a 7,000 yard course on 135 acres.

TOC is way under 135 acres. Depends on the land and the GCA.

Jon

[Neil White]

How many acres does Merion East cover?

WW

Wade,

Merion East sits on ~ 110 acres.

Jon,

TOC is less than 100 acres.

Neil.

[Bradley Anderson]

I would not advise building  a "destination course" in the Midwest.

You couldn't ask for a better piece of property and setting than The Pete Dye Course at French Lick and they only did about 4 or 5 thousand rounds last year. You have to ask yourself how any golf course can make it on only 4 -5 thousand rounds without being subsidized.

[Phil McDade]

Brad:

Herb Kohler has done pretty well building "destination" courses in the Midwest -- but then again, Sheboygan is actually near something (Milwaukee, not that far from Chicago, a short day's drive for fanatical Minnesota golfers), and his courses are 5 minutes off a major interstate, which was part of his marketing know-how. French Lick is hard to get to, and not really near anything (well, sort of, if you count Louisville and JakaB's home dwellings...)

[Nigel Islam]

I would not advise building  a "destination course" in the Midwest.

You couldn't ask for a better piece of property and setting than The Pete Dye Course at French Lick and they only did about 4 or 5 thousand rounds last year. You have to ask yourself how any golf course can make it on only 4 -5 thousand rounds without being subsidized.

Bradley, I think that was originally the intention of the ownership at French Lick. Since Mr. Cook financed the whole renovation of the town right down to the three golf courses, I believe that they did not have any debt (starting out). The idea behind the Dye course was to create a mystique course with very little play that you had to stay at the dome to play. The target audience was the high rolling gamblers. French Lick as whole is amazing compared to what it was 10 years ago, but I think that the concept of the Dye course may be changing since they started offering memberships last year. The Ross course gets tons of play, and is very difficult to get a tee time on during the peak season.

[archie_struthers]

 


I think officially Merion admits to 116 acres.  However , its brilliantly done because of the layering of holes , stacking of fairways if you will. It allows for more quality thru some separation. Think holes three, seven and eight. 

Another thing that would limit the ability to do it on a small piece  of ground today is neighbors.  Merion, e.g. is grandfathered , so they are fairly well protected from nuisance lawsuits from surrounding land owners.  If you had 135 acres with no neighbors and limited roads it would be much easier for the architect, as they wouldn't be concerned with ballistic testing for the government regs.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Seminole Golf Club covers 140 acres.

Whether it is a championship layout, you tell me. All I know is that I saw Dustin Johnson shoot a 75 last year in the Member-Pro. On the contrary, Tiger shot 63 the only time he played. That said, the big difference was wind conditions and pin placements.

On a property like this, you must be very efficient (a la Donald Ross) and the term "genius" does come to mind. A lot of the strategy at Seminole derives from the Sand Ridges running on the West side of the property and along the ocean. These would be environmentally protected if you tried to build today.

To answer the question bluntly: I believe 135 is too small to build a "championship" course because it leaves the architect no room to find/design the best holes. It would really be pushing it to build a 7,000 yard course on 135 acres.

Pine Tree sits on 140 acres and is 7315yds from the back tees...and flat.

[Jeff Bertch]

Tony,

Pine Tree is nothing short of BRILLIANT! A true testament to Dick Wilson and the effort of you and your staff.
I was thoroughly impressed when I played it last winter.

Pine Tree is definitely the exception to my comments.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony,

Pine Tree is nothing short of BRILLIANT! A true testament to Dick Wilson and the effort of you and your staff.
I was thoroughly impressed when I played it last winter.

Pine Tree is definitely the exception to my comments.

Thank you for the kinds words! Hopefully you get the chance to come back and see the changes in bunkering and turf. A much better course with e turf that holds up to our winter golfer better. PT is unique in that its a 50+ years old course, that wasn't really stretched much over the years. Meaning, you're not driving back to tees, as if distance and tees were built/added over the years. It's a big course on a smaller piece of property. I can stand on the 6th green and see the entire front 9 other than 4&5. Pretty cool.

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