[paul cowley]

Obviously this is a reaction to the current thread concerning what pisses many off about golf course architecture/construction...which is fine to the extent that too much bad news without a little good, or to much criticism with out offering a positive solution can be depressing after awhile.

That being said, why not offer another exercise that balances something you like with something you don't like...OK?...then I'll go first;


I like cartpaths that incorporate form and function and lend themselves to the landscape, much the same way a winding mountain road doesn't always mar the scenery, but allows one to be part of it during the driving experience. I feel that its helpful to maintain both a visual and mental connection with the course as one proceeds to the ball.

VS

I don't like obsessive efforts to hide cartpaths. This can drive up construction costs and at times it can make the course feel less flowing and connected.

Long cartball connections are excluded and should be made as pleasurable as the budget allows.

[Sean_A]

Given they are well placed away from greens, I like walking paths which are prepared and offer an earthy contrast colour to grass. 

VS

I don't like cart paths generally because the surface is an industrial colour and makeup which has no place on a golf course. 

Ciao

 

[Peter Pallotta]

I like a routing that produces an easy and pleasant flow of holes throughout the round, even if it means a quiet/understated/middling "connector hole" or two caused by environmental or other restrictions

vs

My unlike of a tortured, doubling back and around kind of routing that "overcomes" environmental or other restrictions to produce the "best" 18 holes -- and no "weak" holes -- but at the cost of losing all sense of an unbroken journey

[Paul Gray]

Given they are well placed away from greens, I like walking paths which are prepared and offer an earthy contrast colour to grass. 

VS

I don't like cart paths generally because the surface is an industrial colour and makeup which has no place on a golf course. 

Ciao

 

+1

I like the move back towards the principles of GCA which made early courses so enjoyable to play.

Vs

I don't like the work of architects that pay lip service to the concept but can't ultimately accept that they can't improve on nature. Placing heather or such like on the lip of a bunker doesn't fundamentally change its design.

[Sean_A]

Placing heather or such like on the lip of a bunker doesn't fundamentally change its design.

It won't fundamentally change the design but it can dramatically enhance the aesthetics. Always a good thing.

When done well (see the very recent bunkering work at Liphook) heather planted on bunkers can look magnificent - if you go to Liphook and tell me you don't think that the bunkering is anything short of an absolute delight, I will eat my hat. I agree, if done badly, it can be less than ideal - usually when the heather fails to take properly and you have little insipid tufts (I won't name the course I am thinking of but if they took a leaf out of Liphook's book and did the job properly, I think its aesthetics would be transformed).

Brian

I like deep heather topped bunkers.

VS

I dislike shallow heather topped bunkers kin which balls get hung up in the heather rather than the sand. The heather adds aesthetic value, but I want the sand to be the hazard, not the heather.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Placing heather or such like on the lip of a bunker doesn't fundamentally change its design.

It won't fundamentally change the design but it can dramatically enhance the aesthetics. Always a good thing.

When done well (see the very recent bunkering work at Liphook) heather planted on bunkers can look magnificent - if you go to Liphook and tell me you don't think that the bunkering is anything short of an absolute delight, I will eat my hat. I agree, if done badly, it can be less than ideal - usually when the heather fails to take properly and you have little insipid tufts (I won't name the course I am thinking of but if they took a leaf out of Liphook's book and did the job properly, I think its aesthetics would be transformed).

Brian

I like deep heather topped bunkers.

VS

I dislike shallow heather topped bunkers kin which balls get hung up in the heather rather than the sand. The heather adds aesthetic value, but I want the sand to be the hazard, not the heather.

Ciao

  OK - Just for the sake of keeping this one going.... I like heather topped bunkers where the heather bleeds back in to the roughs in a natural looking way.... vs.... I dislike very uniform looking heather topped bunkers through a course where there is little heather close by

[jeffwarne]

I like penal bunkers that take up small amounts of acreage in the fairway, quite near the ideal place to be
I dislike no or low lipped fair, manicured, bunkers that take up lots of acreage on the perimeters and are nowhere near the place to be

[Ken Moum]

I HATE a plethora of forced carries over water....  which I had forgotten about until I played Ocotillo Golf Club in Chandler AZ last week. It's actually a decent golf course, but all the damned carries over water wears me out.  I am no great ball striker, but my index still hovers in the 10-12 range, so I'm not a complete hack.

Nothing is more disheartening than hitting a decent tee ball on a par four, then having to lay up because the carry is too big... then mis-hitting the layup and STILL not having a makeable carry for your third shot. 

A forced carry here or there is one thing, but more than a couple in 18 holes is not my cup of GCA tea.

While a I generally figure water isn't a great thing, I realize that at some courses the builders have no choice but to use it as a hazard.

So, what I like re. water, is when the architect uses it to make me think about what I am going to do.  A cape hole or two is interesting IF the fairway offers a chance to bail out without losing your ball.  And I like it when a player who hits their shot close to lateral water has a much better approach than one that takes the safe route away from the water.

K

[Tom_Doak]

I like courses where the greens and tees are so close together that it's easier to walk than to use a cart.

I don't like having to move a tee further from the previous green in order to accommodate a cart path.  [It DOES sometimes happen that way.]


also,

I like any sort of existing ground cover where you can find a ball and play it.  That includes woods when there is a relatively clean forest underneath, heather if it isn't too thick, sparse grasses that are unmowed, or turfgrass that's generally maintained at two inches or less.

I don't like "native" rough that is so thick that you can't find your ball in it or play a shot out of it.  And I really don't like it when new golf courses plant such rough and create the problem for themselves.

[Sean_A]

Placing heather or such like on the lip of a bunker doesn't fundamentally change its design.

It won't fundamentally change the design but it can dramatically enhance the aesthetics. Always a good thing.

When done well (see the very recent bunkering work at Liphook) heather planted on bunkers can look magnificent - if you go to Liphook and tell me you don't think that the bunkering is anything short of an absolute delight, I will eat my hat. I agree, if done badly, it can be less than ideal - usually when the heather fails to take properly and you have little insipid tufts (I won't name the course I am thinking of but if they took a leaf out of Liphook's book and did the job properly, I think its aesthetics would be transformed).

Brian

I like deep heather topped bunkers.

VS

I dislike shallow heather topped bunkers kin which balls get hung up in the heather rather than the sand. The heather adds aesthetic value, but I want the sand to be the hazard, not the heather.

Ciao

  OK - Just for the sake of keeping this one going.... I like heather topped bunkers where the heather bleeds back in to the roughs in a natural looking way.... vs.... I dislike very uniform looking heather topped bunkers through a course where there is little heather close by

Ally

Yes, aesthetically, I like heather from bunkers to bleed into heather on the wings, but

VS

I dislike a lot of bunkers on the wings of courses and more especially too many bunkers which don't have fairway both sides of the sand.  So, I reckon if an alley interrupts the bunker heather from the wing heather, this can often be a good compromise. 

I like courses which don't rely on bunkering for the main tee to green interest

VS

I don't like courses where three bunkers do the job of one better placed bunker.

I like a set of greens to have all sorts of configurations, sites, slopes and contours

VS

I don't like it when the raised green is overly relied upon

Ciao 

[Paul Gray]

Placing heather or such like on the lip of a bunker doesn't fundamentally change its design.

It won't fundamentally change the design but it can dramatically enhance the aesthetics. Always a good thing.

When done well (see the very recent bunkering work at Liphook) heather planted on bunkers can look magnificent - if you go to Liphook and tell me you don't think that the bunkering is anything short of an absolute delight, I will eat my hat. I agree, if done badly, it can be less than ideal - usually when the heather fails to take properly and you have little insipid tufts (I won't name the course I am thinking of but if they took a leaf out of Liphook's book and did the job properly, I think its aesthetics would be transformed).

Agreed. I came up with a flippant example and, quite rightly, was picked up on it. I'm familiar with Liphook and think you cite a fine example. As you said, when done well it does indeed look magnificent.

I was simply trying to make the broader point that just about every architect has a few standard lines about nature defining the course and so on and so forth but the evidence out there is often contradictory to the sound bite. 

[paul cowley]

I like courses where the greens and tees are so close together that it's easier to walk than to use a cart.

I don't like having to move a tee further from the previous green in order to accommodate a cart path.  [It DOES sometimes happen that way.]


also,

I like any sort of existing ground cover where you can find a ball and play it.  That includes woods when there is a relatively clean forest underneath, heather if it isn't too thick, sparse grasses that are unmowed, or turfgrass that's generally maintained at two inches or less.

I don't like "native" rough that is so thick that you can't find your ball in it or play a shot out of it.  And I really don't like it when new golf courses plant such rough and create the problem for themselves.

LIKE what Tom said.



To best accommodate the most players I have begun to locate the members walk off tees closest to the greens, while letting the back tee players walk back to them.

Of course this doesn't allow for much future lengthening of holes...but I'm not sure that was much a concern for the ODG's...and less and less for me  

[Paul Gray]

Another thread just got me thinking........

Like: Links golf

Dislike: Any unnatural attempt to mimic it.

Surely nothing highlights the ignorance of man vs nature more than the pretend links course.

 

[Mike_Young]

I like small one color scorecards that are six inches in width.  I don't like scorecards with photographs and/or advertising etc.

I like golf professionals that can play and treat all of their members equal.  I don't like golf professionals who confuse themselves with professional golfers.  And I really like those that have an environment where they can wear deck shoes.

I like simple hole identification.  I don't like large obtrusive hole signage.  the same strategy for tee markers.

I like blending of HOC throughout a course.  I don't like precise definition of such.

And I like golf as a game.  I don't like golf as an amenity.

[Gib_Papazian]

At Paul's prodding, I'll pull up a stool and join the discussion, but in pursuit of my post-apocalyptic New Year's pledge to become kinder, gentler, more equanimous and less confrontational, I'll highlight only the positives - having already vented the dark side of the ledger on another thread. Last night, the Redhead poked her freckled finger at my sullen disposition of late and ordered me to curb my stream of choleric negativity.

Evidently, my moonless trough of judgmental animus is spilling over into her teacup of sunshine. I suggested that personality traits tend to exaggerate with age and reminded her Redness that she took the vows fully aware her spouse was hardly Fred Rogers. I'd hoped the Mayan Calendar would put humanity out of its misery, but as the new millennium brought Gangnam Style, another four years of that idiot and a realization that the Yips don't go away just because you putt left-handed, I'm forced to see it through to the bitter end.

It has been quite a while since I've looked at the black-ink side of the books, but just because I can look through a knothole at the verdant pastures of buoyant euphoria does not mean I can scale the barbed wire and actually join the party. With those caveats laid on the table, here goes:

What I "Like About Golf."

A quirky muni course.
Fairways of dormant Bermuda.
Tap-in birdies.
Southampton Windmills.
Names like The Valley of Sin.
Hottie, 40-something beer wenches.
Walking Only courses.
Downhill driving ranges.
A visit to an old favorite years later.
Late afternoon Skins Games.
Par-3 courses in tennis shoes with old buddies.
Brand new Soft-Spikes,
A freshening breeze off the North Sea.
Fuzzy Zoeller.
Watching The Masters in a comfy chair.
British commentators.
Watching Tiger finish 2nd in a Major.
First off on the Ocean Course with my best friend.
Playing a Redan for the first time.
A round and dinner with any of my old friends here.
George Bahto.
Finding a hidden gem.
Scratching up a hole with Neal.
Catching a tee shot right on the screws.
A pulled or pushed putt that somehow still drops.
A sandy par.
Being Dormie on the 14th tee.
Beating the snot out of somebody you think is an asshole.
Losing to an old friend who played their career round.
Making par out of nowhere.
Silly headcovers.
The wisdom of Sir Bob.
Baggy shorts full of tees, sand and ball markers.
Watching a young kid hit a great shot.
David Feherty.
Playing with an old couple who’ve been married forever.
An Irish Pitch & Putt.
A knock-down shot under the wind.
Bandon on a buddy trip.
Walking off dinner playing a Whiskey Route.
A Raynor course for the first time.
Talking a high-school kid through the strategy of their next shot.
Finding a sleeve of old balatas in the basement.
The smell of beeswax on persimmon.
A clean golf towel, fresh out of the dryer.
Broken-in Foot-Joys.
Finally playing a course on my bucket list.
Jan Stephenson, because I’ve still got a terrible crush on her.

  
 

[paul cowley]

Gib - Bravo...perked me right up and I hope the Redhead too...Thx - Paul

[Stephen Davis]

Great list Gib! A list like that is going to be hard to beat.

[jeffwarne]

What I "Like About Golf."

A quirky muni course.
Fairways of dormant Bermuda.
Tap-in birdies.
Southampton Windmills.
Names like The Valley of Sin.
Hottie, 40-something beer wenches.
Walking Only courses.
Downhill driving ranges.
A visit to an old favorite years later.
Late afternoon Skins Games.
Par-3 courses in tennis shoes with old buddies.
Brand new Soft-Spikes,
A freshening breeze off the North Sea.
Fuzzy Zoeller.
Watching The Masters in a comfy chair.
British commentators.
Watching Tiger finish 2nd in a Major.
First off on the Ocean Course with my best friend.
Playing a Redan for the first time.
A round and dinner with any of my old friends here.
George Bahto.
Finding a hidden gem.
Scratching up a hole with Neal.
Catching a tee shot right on the screws.
A pulled or pushed putt that somehow still drops.
A sandy par.
Being Dormie on the 14th tee.
Beating the snot out of somebody you think is an asshole.
Losing to an old friend who played their career round.
Making par out of nowhere.
Silly headcovers.
The wisdom of Sir Bob.
Baggy shorts full of tees, sand and ball markers.
Watching a young kid hit a great shot.
David Feherty.
Playing with an old couple who’ve been married forever.
An Irish Pitch & Putt.
A knock-down shot under the wind.
Bandon on a buddy trip.
Walking off dinner playing a Whiskey Route.
A Raynor course for the first time.
Talking a high-school kid through the strategy of their next shot.
Finding a sleeve of old balatas in the basement.
The smell of beeswax on persimmon.
A clean golf towel, fresh out of the dryer.
Broken-in Foot-Joys.
Finally playing a course on my bucket list.
Jan Stephenson, because I’ve still got a terrible crush on her.

  

Well, except that the grass isn't bermuda (but definitely dormant),and if you combined conditions 5 and 6 (which could be fun ),
I'd say that a warmup at The Bridge followed by a round at The Goat would satisfy at least 11 of the first 12 conditions, and no doubt a few more by the end of a few pints.

Nice list-kudos to The Redhead

[Gib_Papazian]

Sorry Paul, I've killed another thread.

[noonan]

Post of the year Gib - but it is only 14 days old.

Well done!

[paul cowley]

I like bunkers and waste areas of all sizes as long as the are strategically relevent. I like bunkers and waste areas of all styles and shapes as long as they possess a balance of form and function.

VS

High sand area construction and maintenance costs. I'd play all sand areas as through the green...like waste areas...and treat unraked footprints the same as divots, ball and spike marks and unequal vegetation situations in the rough. I'd provide sand rakes for those who choose to use them and only rake sand areas as a maintenance function similar to grass mowing.

[Gib_Papazian]

One thing I forgot to mention is the amusement of finally meeting someone from the Treehouse years after reading their posts. I've been blessed with many friends made here, but the internet persona is often 180 degrees from the cat wandering down the fairway with me. For instance, Mucci often thunders his responses in venomous green, but in person is polite, genteel and deferential - with perfect golf etiquette.

To a man, those who have actually met the subdued Dr. Jekyll can scarcely believe Barny Hyde shares the same body and mind - as if the rogue serpent who deliberately detonates nail bombs in our garden party is actually somebody else. We conjure up imaginary images to all the names in the Treehouse we've never met. It is like we sit together in a room, except some faces are familiar and some have a bag over their head - with a drawing of the face we imagine that has no connection to reality.

And everybody sees a different combination of familiar faces and bags whose only voices are the tone and texture of their posts. Sometimes, the more exaggerated the internet persona, the more understated and placid the man behind the name. The opposite is also true. The only person who was exactly as I imagined was Sir Bob. I didn't know whether to kiss his ring, bow or polish his shoes - I suppose I still don't.



              

[Dave McCollum]

Hope the above isn't another thread killer.  Nicely said.  The rogue serpent nail bomber should maintain your rep.

[Gib_Papazian]

My New Year's Resolution was to improve my rep, not maintain it. I also solemnly promised to cut back on tequila and profanity, but the syndication of Honey Boo Boo and Anthony Butler brought a screeching halt to my ascendance towards wisdom and acceptance of those things which I cannot control.

12 Steps forward, 13 steps back.

-1   

[Ben Sims]

Gib,
 
I was told today that I have lost my enthusiasm for golf architecture and I need to find it again.  It was intimated that I had become negative, cynical and somewhat of a Jim Harbaugh towards fellow man.  How should I handle this information and reform?

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