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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
I got asked this question today, and it may be a future Golf Industry column for me.  While I will come up with my own PO list, I was intriqued by the simplicity of the question, so I ask it here.  Please hold your responses to a billion words or less...... ;)

PS-It occurs to me that many thread eventually get to this topic, but I figure, let's cut direct to the chase, not beat around the bush! :P
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 06:37:10 PM »
Simple as I can say it; there is too much of GCA and construction. 

Now, we can go deeper and discuss what that means or if it is valid. 

But, I'll just hang around a while and see what others say before I go typing off at the mouth....  ;D ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Greg Gilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2013, 07:07:09 PM »
The "spin"....although i guess that's more the owner/developer than the architect.

You know all the buzz words "links style", "i let the ground dictate the routing", "championship course".............

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2013, 07:12:33 PM »
That opening day is so unclear.  I will never forget being there for opening night of The Book of Mormon with the red carpet and all the hoopla.  It just seemed strange that previews had gone on for so long before.  I've been playing the new course at Dismal now for two years and still don't know when it "opens".

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2013, 07:29:29 PM »
Architects that muck up a good site. 

Architects that feel they have to move earth because the site is poor when in actual fact the site is good, they just didn't realise it.


Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2013, 07:38:03 PM »
The perceived notion that USGA green construction methods are always the best option.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Matt Vandelac

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2013, 07:41:12 PM »
I have 2 for sure: 1.) Architects that are not somewhat accomplished players have a hard time seeing design from a golfers perspective.  They should be/were able to make it around a course hitting golf shots.  Watching doesn't count.
2.) Folks that hang out the shingle without apprenticing under someone that had a clue.  The golf boom unfortunately left behind piles of junk from wannabees our decendants will have to deal with for a long time.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2013, 07:51:59 PM »
Unwalkable courses on walkable terrain.

Going uphill to every tee so all the tee shots are downhill. 

Forced carries to most greens. 

RTJ's theme: fairway bunkers L and R, green side bunkers at 5 and 7..... Hole after hole. 

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2013, 07:58:17 PM »
If the course is not long..7k plus it can't be good, even if it was built in 1910...RHE

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2013, 08:11:27 PM »
Jeff,
I think the "herd" mentality of many when it comes to good and bad designs is a detractor for me.  But the biggest thing for me is the waste factor created by the University/vendor machine along with the smoke and mirrors.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2013, 08:35:36 PM »
Jeff,

High on my list is reverse cant fairways on dogleg holes.

Metedeconk seems to have a number of them.


Micah Woods

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2013, 08:57:52 PM »
Sandcapping when it is not necessary.

Planting the wrong grass.

Both happen way too often.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2013, 10:23:14 PM »
To echo Micah's comments above and some of the others (not to mention a letter I wrote this morning), by far the thing that pisses me off most is that so many people in the golf business insist on "world class standards" and equate that with "doing things the most expensive way possible".

Golf in China is going to be destroyed forever because a bunch of foreign experts are over there telling them how to mess it up.  Imagine if golf in Scotland had had to pay for sand capping and Sub Air and fertigation and all the b.s. we have today.  The game would probably not exist at all.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2013, 11:16:45 PM »
I have 2 for sure: 1.) Architects that are not somewhat accomplished players have a hard time seeing design from a golfers perspective.  They should be/were able to make it around a course hitting golf shots.  Watching doesn't count.


Seth Raynor was not much of -- if at all -- a golfer. But he was a trained civil engineer. Built some courses that have held up over time.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2013, 12:39:41 AM »
I have 2 for sure: 1.) Architects that are not somewhat accomplished players have a hard time seeing design from a golfers perspective.  They should be/were able to make it around a course hitting golf shots.  Watching doesn't count.


Seth Raynor was not much of -- if at all -- a golfer. But he was a trained civil engineer. Built some courses that have held up over time.

If anything I would suggest that average golfers can make exceptional architects. Mackenzie, Raynor, and a few others. Sort of like the back-up catcher making a great manager in baseball.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2013, 01:03:18 AM »
I have 2 for sure: 1.) Architects that are not somewhat accomplished players have a hard time seeing design from a golfers perspective.  They should be/were able to make it around a course hitting golf shots.  Watching doesn't count.


Seth Raynor was not much of -- if at all -- a golfer. But he was a trained civil engineer. Built some courses that have held up over time.

If anything I would suggest that average golfers can make exceptional architects. Mackenzie, Raynor, and a few others. Sort of like the back-up catcher making a great manager in baseball.

Please do not compare someone who made a major league roster to a 14 handicap golfer. It's more like the beer barker at your local stadium becoming a manager.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2013, 01:08:22 AM »
real estate speculation with 18, 27, or 36 holes fit in
courses that are unwalkable (mostly)
visible cement/asphalt cart paths
Hawtree/Dawson, lol
It's all about the golf!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2013, 01:29:11 AM »
As being coaxed out of the discussion above by some contributors; the unnecessary expense of the wrongly placed attitude of selling the bombastic.  Marketing the GCA's service as the most artistic and elaborate, beautiful fields of golfing nirvana, along with the extraordinary over engineered and over shaped violations of the land that adds nothing to the actual required array of routing and features to offer the player a nice round of golf.  Of course TD says it well above.  Wouldn't it be nice if some of these big name archies, unfortunately known for their elaborate features and landartscape would be less greedy to oversell the client, and tell them all the superfluous features merely adds to the ultimate reduction of golfer participation due to the discouragement to pay so much to play a much more simple game than they market the aura of golf to be?  I agree, if this bombastic campaign to sell golf as artscape beauty and iidylic fields with McMasion homes surrounding the game, along with all the unnecessary infrastructure added to the construction process were the ethic at the start of the game, we'd all just be participating in other Scotish games like maide leisk, caber toss, stone putting, curling, or kilt flashing.  ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2013, 01:31:55 AM »
I have 2 for sure: 1.) Architects that are not somewhat accomplished players have a hard time seeing design from a golfers perspective.  They should be/were able to make it around a course hitting golf shots.  Watching doesn't count.


Seth Raynor was not much of -- if at all -- a golfer. But he was a trained civil engineer. Built some courses that have held up over time.

If anything I would suggest that average golfers can make exceptional architects. Mackenzie, Raynor, and a few others. Sort of like the back-up catcher making a great manager in baseball.

Please do not compare someone who made a major league roster to a 14 handicap golfer. It's more like the beer barker at your local stadium becoming a manager.

HA! Point taken.  Maybe I should have compared Tillie or Macdonald to the back-up catcher.

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2013, 06:17:19 AM »
Courses that are built with the intention that they never be walked.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2013, 07:37:59 AM »
Kevin,

Actually, my first response was "courses designed only to be photographed". 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2013, 08:05:11 AM »
Two things get me.

1. Lack of good drainage.  A course is only as good as how dry it is.   

2. The unwillingness to build roughly 5500-6300 yard courses. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2013, 09:18:19 AM »
If the course is not long..7k plus it can't be good, even if it was built in 1910...RHE

And must be a par of 72!


Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 09:58:52 AM »
You must have bent grass greens to have top notch Top 100 putting greens. 
And to much undulation in the greens prevents them from reaching speeds of 12+ on the stimpmeter.  (I don't know about you but I like having some interesting putts in my round, not just dead flat putts rolling like ice all day long)

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What pisses you off about golf course architecture/construction?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2013, 10:16:29 AM »
Is your article going to be written by a licensed golf course architect?
The ASGCA trying to convince cities that the ASGCA should be required for projects
Because I see that requirement as contributing to what Tom said about China and Mike says about smoke and mirrors

And overall what Mike Young and Tom Doak said
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.