Conditioning

[John Kavanaugh]

I prefer Sand Hills over Ballyneal because of the condition of Sand Hills greens.

When I was at Sand Hills this summer there was one day when the wind was so strong that balls wouldn't stay on a few of the greens and there were two greens in particular where you couldn't finish because every ball would roll off of the green after you putted.

With the same wind at Ballyneal we didn't encounter those issues. 

I don't know if you would call this a conditioning issue but it did matter as you played the golf course.

There is an simple solution. Don't miss!!!  I really should not be part of this discussion because I can not recall a single day in my life when it wasn't the finest day for golf that I could ever imagine. Remember that day we bumped into each other in the parking lot at Rustic Canyon. Does it get any better than that.  Damn I'm lucky.

I've golfed with a ton of people from this site and if any of you can recall a day where the conditions were not optimum for that day at that course please refresh my memory. This ain't just coincidence.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

  Who's saying that? I score to the definition and handbook as best I can.

No one on this site believes that you believe in the Golf Digest method for determining the 100 Greatest courses. I get it because I don't believe in every catechism of the apostolic Catholic Church. I just don't want to go to Hell if I'm wrong so I hedge my bets with one lousy hour every week pretending to give a shit about the holy sacraments. What do you sell out for, a bag tag?

If the Catholic Church ever comes out with something so offensive as Canyata is better than Ballyneal I promise I would denounce my faith. I seriously don't know how you can live with yourself.

[Jim Colton]

I hear from you that Canyata is really strong. In fairness, Rich Harvest > Ballyneal does makes me question my will to live. Maybe someday.

I like numbers. I can't help it. Seeing a process make inefficient use of information drives me crazy. I'd help Brad with his Golfweek numbers if he'd let me, and Ballyneal just does fine there.

[John Kavanaugh]

I hear from you that Canyata is really strong. In fairness, Rich Harvest > Ballyneal does makes me question my will to live. Maybe someday.

I like numbers. I can't help it. Seeing a process make inefficient use of information drives me crazy. I'd help Brad with his Golfweek numbers if he'd let me, and Ballyneal just does fine there.

You will never leave Digest and go to Golfweek because your peers and superiors at work would see it as a demotion. Fly that winning flag. Nobody likes a loser.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

I'm not judging you. I would have been a Digest rater in a second if they would have had me. I still believe they have the best most accurate system.

[Jim Colton]

John, it really is the Gold Standard.

[Mark Saltzman]

What is it about Somerset Hills that is the reason for the relatively low conditioning score?

[Bill McKinley]

Jim,

Maybe you can speak from your experience and other raters you've interacted with about a couple aspects of conditioning...

1. Bunkers. A very polarizing feature of conditioning. Firm sand, fluffy sand, perfectly manicured or completely unkempt. Do you think it's good or bad to get a buried or fried egg lie?

2. With repect to the idea of fast and firm, what happens if you make a trip to play a course and the one time you play it, it has rained a bunch the night before, but you are still able to play under sub par conditions.

With how tight everything is bunched up, especially from the 2nd 50 on down, it seems these two items could greatly effect a courses conditioning scale.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

Bill

[Mac Plumart]

Does anyone know the best way to present a table on this forum?

The below shows the reranked Top 100 if we completely ignore the conditioning stats. In general, not many moves outside of 10 courses.

Biggest Movers (Positive)
 
Course                    Delta
Ballyneal                    19
Harbour Town            24
Maidstone Club            25
Kapalua (Plantation)    19
Somerset Hills            13

Biggest Movers (Negative)

Course                            Delta
Flint Hills                           -11
Eagle Point                     -17
The Preserve                   -11
Double Eagle                   -16
The Quarry at La Quinta   -12

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoY9nPXUI9bWdDdnUXZnWEtkeEd2WVgxWjE0RXlqeHc

WOW!!

Thanks, Patrick!

That is beyond interesting.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mac,

The fact that Ballyneal moves 19 spots from 78 to 59 proves to me that conditioning makes little to no difference. 78 or 59 is exactly the same for all practical purposes.

Doak stuck me in the gut because Victoria is ranked 90th in conditioning. Vic moved up three spots. No difference.

What did you find so interesting?

[Mac Plumart]

John...

It appears that courses that best fit the definition of Golf Digest "Conditioning" category actually derive a BIG benefit from the scores from that category being removed!  Of note, per Patrick's chart...all the courses at Bandon.

Meanwhile, the courses that seem to fit the green and lush definition of the term experience the opposite.



And I disagree with you, 19 spots is a big, big deal. 

[John Kavanaugh]

After all the gnashing of teeth over ANGC being rated the best conditioned course in the country you take conditioning out and it remains #2. Doesn't move a spot. I guess this is interesting.

[Mac Plumart]

I guess this is interesting.

Must have been.  It was at least interesting enough for you to dedicate an entire post to it.

 

[Jud_T]

I agree with Mac.  19 spots up is rediculous.  This puts the lie to Digests' methodology and weightings and we're not even talking about their sacred resistance to scoring.

[John Kavanaugh]

Then you have to accept that there is a huge difference between the 79th and the 58th course. You know that is a lie. The only courses moving are the courses where moving does not have any meaning.

[Jud_T]

Well I think going from 82nd to 101st because raters don't properly interpret the new conditioning criteria certainly wouldn't be immaterial to the affected course.  Or 118th to 99th.

[Jim Colton]

I think the biggest change would be Shoreacres would replace Diamond Creek, Double Eagle or The Quarry at La Quinta in the top 100. Galloway National and Princeville Prince would probably find their way in too. We don't know Kingsley's conditioning score, but it would flirt with top 100 if its condition score were 7.4 or less.

I think if you surveyed clubs and their members, especially those clubs seeking members, most would rather be ranked 20 slots higher rather than lower.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mac...and Jud...

Check my math but the difference in total points I have between the 58th-greatest course ex conditioning, Ballyneal, and the 79th, Rich Harvest, as:

-0.4697

If we reduce the Shot Values category from 2x to ~1.76, roughly preserving its contribution to the final score if conditioning is removed, the difference is:

-0.4216

In percentage terms, the differences above are -0.88 percent and -0.81 percent, respectively.

Please don't hate me for keeping it real!

[Jud_T]

Mark,

That only serves to highlight the silliness of Digest's attempt to artificially impose mathematical rigor to the process via their categories and weightings which have been arrived at artificially.  Of course I just renewed my subscription...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Any list on conditioning that does not include Atlantic is a joke.
From day one the conditioning at Atlantic was spectacular.

One of my early memories at Atlantic was trying to determine the direction of the breeze, so with my gloved hand I reached down to pinch and pull some grass from the fairway so that I could throw it in the air.   The fairway was mowed so tight that I couldn't pinch and pull any grass up and had to use my non-gloved hand.

Since the day it opened, the conditioning has been incredible thanks to Bobby Ranum and the club's desire to produce F & F conditions.



I thought it was interesting to compare Darius Oliver's (hardly a proponent of over-watered, soft courses) list of best conditioned courses in the US.  Below are the 24 courses he lists in Planet Golf USA as having the "Best Conditioning".  The second list is the first 24 courses from the new Golf Digest ranking with the highest conditioning scores.

Interesting, agree, disagree?

Planet Golf USA

Oakmont
Quarry at La Quinta
Augusta National
Sand Hills
Sebonack
Shadow Creek
Bandon Trails
Kinloch
Old Sandwich
Pacific Dunes
The Preserve
The Concession
Honors
Hawks Ridge
Kapalua (Plantation)
Eastward Ho!
Bandon Dunes
Peachtree
Myopia Hunt
Merion (East)
Double Eagle
Muirfield Village
Boston GC
Galloway National



Golf Digest


Augusta National   8.9802
Oakmont C.C.   8.7108
Pine Valley   8.5744
Shinnecock Hills   8.4817
The Quarry at La Quinta   8.4132
Muirfield Village   8.4065
The Alotian Club   8.4007
Double Eagle   8.3996
Canyata   8.3761
Chicago Golf   8.2992
Baltusrol (Lower)   8.2934
Oakland Hills (South)   8.2931
Sand Hills   8.2820
Cypress Point   8.2409
Kinloch   8.2229
Crystal Downs   8.2004
Merion (East)   8.1989
Seminole   8.1938
Eagle Point   8.1748
Diamond Creek Golf Club   8.1725
Oak Hill (East)   8.1721
Southern Hills   8.1526
Castle Pines   8.1459
Baltusrol (Upper)   8.1314

[Patrick_Mucci]

I agree Tom.  However, I think conditioning is a big deal to a lot of people. 

Isn't conditioning equivalent to getting your playing surfaces at their optimal best ?

So why wouldn't conditioning be important ?

How can FAST & FIRM be achieved WITHOUT good to great conditioning ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

What is it about Somerset Hills that is the reason for the relatively low conditioning score?

Mark,

Like Maidstone, for years, good to great conditioning was not a priority, not a concern and their budgets reflected same.

But, there's ebb and flow at almost every club and SHCC eventually saw the light and began to focus on tree removal and conditioning.

Historically, they wouldn't make the top 20 in Northern New Jersey.

[Mark McKeever]

Interesting Pat.  I only played recently and have never been exposed to "the way things used to be" 

The conditioning out there is great now!

MM

[Tim Gavrich]

Let's talk about how the presence and effect of the Conditioning statistic, in any ranking, rewards private clubs' courses in a disproportionate way. That "top conditioning" list is all private courses. I wonder if there has been any discussion at Golf Digest about adding a caveat to the Conditioning definition that demands a much higher standard for the courses whose maintenance budgets are obviously orders of magnitude higher than those belonging to the courses played by the large majority of the golfing population. Why is there a secondary "Top 100 Public Courses" list but not a "Top 100 Private Courses" list? What if every list had to include 50 private courses and 50 publics?

What does any list of the top 100 courses in the country that includes private clubs do to the person toying with the idea of picking up the game? He/she sees that (by my quick count) 84 of the Top 100 are private, for all intents and purposes unplayable. What does that do to grow the game?

The latter two thisrds of the above mini-rant is OT, I guess, so what say we about the Conditioning bit?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interesting Pat.  I only played recently and have never been exposed to "the way things used to be" 

The conditioning out there is great now!


Mark,

There was a time when "ratty" conditions were considered "chic"

Fortunately times have changed

For those who attended the GCA.com get together at Mountain Ridge, I think you experienced playing conditions that were the equal or better than those clubs on the lists.


MM