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Andy Troeger

Re: Conditioning
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2013, 10:14:50 AM »
Jud,
I've made hundreds of comments (literally) about the process and the criteria--so you can look for those if you like. There was one on the main thread about my own criteria. I don't think its a perfect system--but I personally wouldn't be rating courses mainly for low-handicaps. Some of the courses that make the list aren't courses I favor. Quite frankly though there are courses on every list that I don't favor. Is Kingsley better than half the courses on the list? Absolutely!

You've admitted to not being a single-digit handicap and you clearly don't like the criteria. From the various comments there are at least 50 posters here that agree with you. Then don't read or use the list, because I'm pretty confident that Digest isn't going to change the process because its not universally appreciated. That's why there are multiple lists with different methods. Pick the one you like, or none at all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #101 on: January 12, 2013, 10:49:10 AM »
I think its best to keep in mind that optimal conditions vary for each person, club budget and climate.  There are always trade-offs to be made.  That said, much of this debate surely must revolve around club goals.  I will give you a basic example.  There is now a push in the UK for courses which can eliminate poa in favour of fescues and bents to do so.  An inherent trade-off with this sort of policy, because of less chemicals, less feed and likely less cutting and at higher heights, greens will not be as quick in summer as in past years.  A great many golfers lament this loss of green speed.  However, on the positive side, greens are firmer and thus play better throughout the year than previously.  Few talk about how good some winter greens are because many think of optimal conditions as a summertime only deal.  I think this is short-sighted in a climate in which one can play 12 months a year.  In a place like England where winter can be wet and temps hovering around or just below the grow zone for months on end, I think a policy of year round green quality at the expense of some green speed in summer is very wise.  I also think that in the long term it will be a cheaper maintenance policy. 

I not only think minimal chemicals/feed/water is best for greens in England, but virtually everywhere.  So long as clubs accept that greens cannot be at flying pace (maybe 8-10 instead), its hard to imagine why lean and mean isn't cheaper in the long run most anywhere.  Its the ott green speed expectations of memberships which make lean and mean expensive, not the policy of lean & mean itself.

Ciao

         
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matt Neff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #102 on: January 12, 2013, 03:09:22 PM »
I not only think minimal chemicals/feed/water is best for greens in England, but virtually everywhere.  So long as clubs accept that greens cannot be at flying pace (maybe 8-10 instead), its hard to imagine why lean and mean isn't cheaper in the long run most anywhere.  Its the ott green speed expectations of memberships which make lean and mean expensive, not the policy of lean & mean itself.

        

Great point with one caveat that hasn't been mentioned yet.  The lean and mean/fast and firm philosophy is certainly a more sustainable model but the most important aspect of it is the right grass for the climate.  It will only be successful when this is properly addressed.  Bentgrass in the Southeast or Poa in the Mid-Atlantic/Transition Zone, for example, is going to be on the verge of checking out for the majority of the summer and therefore more expensive to maintain regardless of the green speed/mowing height.  Sorry if this is a bit OT but thought it was worth mentioning.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #103 on: January 12, 2013, 03:40:13 PM »
Rye is installing irrigation. Maidstone is installing irrigation.

War's over, people. "Natural" lost. Ergo, the time when conditioning was irrelevant to greatness, when we played a course as we found it, is over. As a controllable element it has been moved "above the line" in man's arrogant quest not merely to control nature but to subvert it: why not reward the successful and punish the failures?

Golf Digest's definition is moving towards Tom Paul's IMM, a concept many support when they're not hatin' on GD's. It's all down to definitions, now.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #104 on: January 12, 2013, 04:01:02 PM »
Andy,

Do you feel Digest's current set of criteria is a positive or negative influence on the game and it's playing fields?  

Jud,

What do you think the reason is that Kingsley gets underrated by GD?  I haven't been there, honestly all I have heard is that it is awesome, and haven't been able to hear any reasons why it isn't on the list. What is your theory?

There are other courses in the Top 100 where I know raters have not given particularly good scores so it certainly isn't easy to determine who makes it and why.


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #105 on: January 12, 2013, 04:51:46 PM »
Sean,

It's a good question.

1.  It's not "fair".  There's a lot of local knowledge.  A good player on his first round is bound to throw up a triple or two and get frustrated.  It's a bit severe in spots and there's a lot of rub of the green.  Of course this is what makes it a ton of fun for repeat play.

2.  It's very firm and fast fescue fairways that are rarely green. 

3.  It's in Kingsley, MI not East Hampton or Palm Beach.

4. It's not done by a name architect.

5.  It tips out under 7000 yards.

Just my guesses.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2013, 04:18:18 AM »

I apologies for this ignorant question in advance and must admit to having just skim read this thread but what exactly is 'conditioning' in relationship to a golf course? Is it the playing quality of the playing surfaces? or maybe the aesthetic look of the playing surfaces?

Jon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Conditioning
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2013, 05:52:18 AM »
Jon,

That was essentially the question I posed earlier.

Is it the quality of the playing surfaces or cosmetics/manicuring ?

If it's the quality of the playing surfaces and one believes in and/or supports the maintenance meld then I believe it's a " positive"

If it's cosmetics/manicuring then I believe it's a negative.