[Greg Tallman]

I have had the director of golf of a major resort tell me that forecaddies are required to protect the course from the golfers.  The argument that you do not require their service will not fly.  It's like paying a cop to follow your car to make sure you don't speed.

While they can certainly assist in looking after the best interests of the operation while working that should never be considered a forecaddie's primary role nor should a DOG ever state it as such.

If you ask why they are mandatory I would respond with "Our aim is to keep some of the traditions of the game alive. While many in this day and age prefer to take carts we still believe the assistance of a caddie, even if not carrying the clubs, is beneficial to the overall experience and even those that are resistant to the idea at first will enjoy the service and color provided by our forecaddies."

Operationally...(the unstated beenfits to the guests)

1. Helps pace of play (rake bunkers... etc.)
2. Keeps course in better condition (bunkers, divots, ball marks... etc report an y issues ...extra eyes everywhere)

[John Kavanaugh]

I had a friend tell me the truth. Sorry to pull back the curtain. I know golfers so it made perfect sense. This is why I rarely play golf in the public arena.

[Greg Tallman]

I had a friend tell me the truth. Sorry to pull back the curtain. I know golfers so it made perfect sense. This is why I rarely play golf in the public arena.

Truth? Perhaps HIS truth but do not generalize every property by one guy's take/operation. Those benefits are merely a part of it and if you wanted the truth it would be more along the lines of fulfilling a required image moreso than protecting the golf course. There are rather well compensated professionals on staff to do that.

You are on jaded guy - or just one who knows what he can tolerate 

Probably the same guy that comes in screaming after playing in 4 hour and 15 minutes asking "what the hell are you going to do about your marshal?"... You probably would not appreciate my answer either. Unfortunately I am forced to offered it up more frequently than I woudl like after those types berate any number of well intentioned and mannered staff. 

[Josh Tarble]

I might be in the minority (of US golfers, based on Ally's post) but I feel a bit awkward when taking a caddy.  Something about having someone wait on me hand and foot...

I liken it to paying someone to shovel the snow off your driveway and then standing and watching them do it. 

Well, in both cases you are paying for a service.  Why not just enjoy it?

I do enjoy it when I take one...however, the feeling leads me to not frequently utilize their services.

[Carl Nichols]

Sure, it's an added expense, but really a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of membership, dues etc. 

I'm not so sure about this, at least as a percentage of monthly dues.  If you play 4.5 times/month, and average $80/bag, that's $360/month.  At my club that would be more than 50% of the standard monthly dues (i.e., not including assessments or other ).  Even at $1000/month, that's 36% more -- not really a drop in the bucket.  (Not saying it's not worth it, just that it's not some small percentage.)

[Bill Brightly]

Impossible to justify the cost of caddies in the US to you guys from the UK, Ireland and the rest of Europe, so I won't try.

But for those guys in the US complaining about the cost, don't forget about all the (unpaid) time spent in the caddyshack waiting for a loop, the days where no bag was availalble, the days course is closed due to rain...

Clubs that want a good caddy program make it worthwhile for guys to show up... It is perhaps one of the best and simplest examples of supply and demand in action.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

At a course I'm very familiar with, they permitted unaccompanied guests.

It became necessary to mandate a caddy for unaccompanied guests because of the way unaccompanied guests treated the golf course.

Why should a resort be any different ?

The asset should be protected for the owner and for other guests.

Plus, if you can afford to travel to Streamsong and play golf, you can afford a few more quid for a caddy.

[Kris Shreiner]

Well as usual...the caddie dynamic discussion never fails to stir the pot! For new, destination courses, many reasons exist to have a quality caddie staff. Streamsong waited until late in the game, prior to opening, to ratchet up their program, and thus primarily brought in competent, hired guns from other places to provide the initial service. One hopes in time that they will craft a true, local staff component to deliver on their stated promise of providing significant community benefit, particularly for the youth of the region who have VERY FEW opportunities for decent employment.

As Streamsong is a new facility draped over a wildish, sandy-based environment, it makes perfect sense to have caddies assist in helping protect the course from player-abuse during its early days. It is still in the healing-in stage, with some of the holes under a year old from their completion. Bunker faces are prime targets for the Africa Corps golfers I've often witnessed... that insist on exiting right up the face if unsupervised! Transition and edge-of-play areas can also pose problems that can require caddie babysitting .

Make no mistake, it's big boy golf at Streamsong, especially in the windy conditions that frequent the place. Solid counsel will greatly aid in enjoying the round. For those that get tremendous pleasure out of figuring it out themselves or have a thrifty nature...have at it...that is the beauty of choice.

There is one aspect of caddie golf that many who can't seem to grasp the concept often are unaware of. The game would be NOTHING like it is today, worldwide...without their rich contributions. Caddie golf has had a TITANIC, POSITIVE impact on the game throughout its history, and properly supported, it will continue or the game will lose . Caddies aren't servants, and they deserve the same level of respect a class person would accord anyone else. Young or old, they are human beings out to do a job. Some may not be very good, just like any other service provider situation,  but that is mainly down to how the program is run.

A quality caddie dynamic can provide one of the most enjoyable experiences in one's golfing life. Forget what you think you know about the game and caddies. Inquire well in advance to secure a good one through the proper channels or contacts when playing a caddie course of caliber. Enter the experience with an open mind and embrace the day...I bet you'll NEVER feel the same about the potential of caddie golf again.

Cheers,
Kris

FYI- The $100.00 per bag caddie rate many on this site seem to wince at or take umbrage with... comprises about 10% of the total caddie golf played...worldwide! An informal, but fairly comprehensive cross-section of my research, conducted mainly in the U. S. and the U.K., has the AVERAGE per bag rate at about $60 in the US - $70 in the UK , INCLUDING tip. This is for ADULT-level service. Youth/ bag carrier status ranges down from there and that is appropriate. The fore-caddie scenario, while difficult and truly an art done well, averages about $30 per player in the US. These remuneration figures hardly break the bank. While some caddies may get crowned in the New York, LA, London and other extortionate Metro areas...what are the costs of living there or the down stroke at those clubs...STIFF! It's all relative folks.

[Sean_A]

Ally

I don't caddies are a cultural thing.  Most US golfers I know would never dream of paying $100 for game let alone for a caddie.  I can also say that the mandatory caddie/cart deal stopped me from joining a club.  I just don't have any interest in hiring a caddie except in rare circumstances.  Even then, I would much rather have a bag carrier kid because I don't NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER TO PAY FOR SO CALLED EXPERT ADVICE when I am playing a game.  Sure, no worries when I want to see a doctor or accountant, but for a game - hell no - its daft if you ask me.  However, we all have own ways of wasting money.  Live and let live.

BTW - there is no way I will ever buy that the golfer gets the same quality service from a caddie doing two bags.  I seriously resent the idea that a guy gets paid double for the job when he isn't is double the work or offering the same service if he only had one bag. 

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

I had a friend tell me the truth. Sorry to pull back the curtain. I know golfers so it made perfect sense. This is why I rarely play golf in the public arena.

Truth? Perhaps HIS truth but do not generalize every property by one guy's take/operation. Those benefits are merely a part of it and if you wanted the truth it would be more along the lines of fulfilling a required image moreso than protecting the golf course. There are rather well compensated professionals on staff to do that.

You are on jaded guy - or just one who knows what he can tolerate 

Probably the same guy that comes in screaming after playing in 4 hour and 15 minutes asking "what the hell are you going to do about your marshal?"... You probably would not appreciate my answer either. Unfortunately I am forced to offered it up more frequently than I woudl like after those types berate any number of well intentioned and mannered staff. 

Greg, the reason I am just now getting back to you is because I have been golfing and haven't played in 4 hrs and 15 minutes since the two piece ball.  Do courses really still use marshals?  You got forecaddies, marshals and GPS on the carts keeping track of us in Mexico?  No wonder your best and brightest yearn for freedom.  I know that I have had my moments but God forbid if I am ever so stupid to berate an ex-federalli volunteering at a golf course where they behead guys like me for giggles.

[David Kelly]

Clubs that want a good caddy program make it worthwhile for guys to show up... It is perhaps one of the best and simplest examples of supply and demand in action.

Actually Bill, it is a perfect example of a command economy.  If the demand was truly there then clubs wouldn't have to make caddies mandatory.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Clubs that want a good caddy program make it worthwhile for guys to show up... It is perhaps one of the best and simplest examples of supply and demand in action.

Actually Bill, it is a perfect example of a command economy.  If the demand was truly there then clubs wouldn't have to make caddies mandatory.

David,

Not necessarily true.

In some cases clubs have structured their caddy and cart fees such that it's a lot cheaper to take a cart.

In most cases a cart is shared and the fee spilt in half, whereas, with a caddy it's a per bag fee,

Many clubs depend upon cart revenue to offset maintenance costs so they intentionally structure the fees to favor cart revenue

[Jud_T]

Top shelf caddies make a lot more sense at a resort course.  At your home club if you can't read the greens or the strategy better than most any caddie after 50 or 100 rounds then perhaps you should consider taking up bowling.  A kid bag carrier is more useful in this situation.

[Niall C]

Patrick/Kris,

You both made reference to damage done to the course by visitor golfers who were unsupervised or who didn't have a caddy. Can you expand on that ? What type of damage are you referring to.

Thanks

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick/Kris,

You both made reference to damage done to the course by visitor golfers who were unsupervised or who didn't have a caddy. Can you expand on that ? What type of damage are you referring to.


Driving carts in sensitive areas is one.

Another is entering and exiting a bunker from the steep front slope.

Taking a chunk out of the green in a fit of anger.

Not replacing divots.

The list is legion

In my limited experience, people tend to take better care of their homes than they do a temporary rental.
Is it any different with a golf course ?

[Will Lozier]

BTW - there is no way I will ever buy that the golfer gets the same quality service from a caddie doing two bags.  I seriously resent the idea that a guy gets paid double for the job when he isn't is double the work or offering the same service if he only had one bag. 
 

Sean,

I think that it is fair to assume you'd get better service/advice from a single in most cases.  But, an experienced caddie will come damned close.  This is again why I preferred to get single jobs - despite earning less - because I liked to focus on one player.  As I also said, it used to drive me crazy when veterans at Bandon would be upset at single assignments as, even though it is a profession, no job should be all about the money.  Nevertheless, it is twice the work and for me, having done it, one should be compensated at such.  Remember, the guests request the number of caddies they want/need and they are/should be aware of the costs associated. 

Cheers

[jeffwarne]

Patrick/Kris,

You both made reference to damage done to the course by visitor golfers who were unsupervised or who didn't have a caddy. Can you expand on that ? What type of damage are you referring to.


Driving carts in sensitive areas is one.

Another is entering and exiting a bunker from the steep front slope.

Taking a chunk out of the green in a fit of anger.

Not replacing divots.

The list is legion

In my limited experience, people tend to take better care of their homes than they do a temporary rental.
Is it any different with a golf course ?

Patrick,
In order for an unaccompanied guest to play at a private club, doesn't he need an introduction from a sponsoring member or the professional?
Shouldn't the sponsor take responsibilty for only sponsoring guests  that will respect the culture of the club as well as properly take care of the course?
Surely it is assumed the host member is acquainted with the manners and conduct of the guest and will clue them in on club policies, as well as the professional staff.
Rather than requiring a babysitter?
How do the iconic (always wanted to use that word ) clubs of the UK manage to allow visitor play without mandatory caddies?

[Will Lozier]

Clubs that want a good caddy program make it worthwhile for guys to show up... It is perhaps one of the best and simplest examples of supply and demand in action.

Actually Bill, it is a perfect example of a command economy.  If the demand was truly there then clubs wouldn't have to make caddies mandatory.

David,

Remember, the only thing mandatory at Bandon is walking.  Caddies are NOT mandatory and yet, the majority of guests take them and the vast majority of those are truly pleased with their decision.  The obvious reasons (or maybe not so obvious) are...1) the fact that walking multiple rounds carrying over multiple days is DIFFICULT! 2) on F&F courses and with the weather on the Oregon coast, best strategy is anything but obvious to the typical American golfer who THINKS ONLY IN TERMS OF CARRY YARDAGE - which does not work at Bandon AT ALL 3) these four GREAT COURSES are great because they offer contours for ground options (given the ever present wind) where strategy in terms of aiming points and line of play are ANYTHING BUT OBVIOUS AND USUALLY VARIED - I can think of literally hundreds of shots where my advice was taken skeptically before my player successfully pulled off a shot they had never played before and certainly never considered 4) the typical green reading, bunker raking, ball/club cleaning duties.

Just on example pertaining to point #3.  Stepping up on Pacific Dunes 5th tee in a summer wind and seeing a back right pin - say 180y from the middle tees - players would never think hit their 155y club 20 yards left of the pin to get anywhere near the pin.  It is an incredible feeling to watch one's ball land short of the green seemingly headed for the back left bunker only to veer right and scoot its way to the back right portion for a birdie chance.  Just one example of hundreds!

Cheers

[Niall C]

Patrick

Thanks for the response. Apart from taking a golf cart into areas that it shouldn't go and doing that through not being aware of the no-go areas, I would have thought guests would be better behaved on another persons course than on their own, a bit like you might put your feet up on the furnture in your own house but your not likely to do that in a friends. Having said that, I would expect most golfers would be well versed and abide by etiquette where ever they played.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
In order for an unaccompanied guest to play at a private club, doesn't he need an introduction from a sponsoring member or the professional?

Yes

Shouldn't the sponsor take responsibilty for only sponsoring guests  that will respect the culture of the club as well as properly take care of the course?

"Shouldn't" ?   What good is that going to do after the damage is done ?
Of course the member/staff is ultimately responsible, but that's after the fact.
Isn't prevention the better course of action ?

When a member donates a foursome to a charity he losses all control over who the golfers will be.
In many cases, when the member or staff makes the arrangements, it's usually for one member of the foursome who in turn invites three other golfers, so the sphere of influence and control gets further removed from the sponsor.

Surely it is assumed the host member is acquainted with the manners and conduct of the guest and will clue them in on club policies, as well as the professional staff.

Jeff, I suspect that your lack of real world experience in this area has you relying on unproven theories.
Often the sponsoring member/staff is doing a favor for:
A relative
A friend
A business connection
A social connection.

Hence their familiarity with all members of the foursome is often sketchy to non-existent.


Rather than requiring a babysitter?

Think of them as tour guides, just like the National Parks Rangers

How do the iconic (always wanted to use that word ) clubs of the UK manage to allow visitor play without mandatory caddies?

I don't know, you'd have to ask them

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, I suspect that your lack of real world experience in this area has you relying on unproven theories.



[/quote]
[/quote]

You're kidding right?

[Bill_McBride]

I love it, Jeff's "lack of real world experience in this area..."   How long have been the professional at a very high end country club?    

[jeffwarne]

I love it, Jeff's "lack of real world experience in this area..."   How long have been the professional at a very high end country club?    

Not as long as Pat's been playing in British am's

[Will Lozier]

I can think of one unproven (ridiculous) theory in these last few posts!  (Hint: it was written in green ink.)

You've been very polite Jeff!

Cheers

[Tom_Doak]

It amazes me that this debate about mandatory carts, mandatory caddies, ad infinitum can be waged in a thread about Streamsong.  I will just remind everyone once again that the resort in question allows you to do WHATEVER YOU WANT.  You can take a cart, or a caddy, or both; or you can pull a trolley, or you can carry your own bag.

Yet you continue to criticize them because they haven't put their thumb on the scale in favor of any option!

I agree that they will probably find it difficult to maintain a top-flight caddie program if it makes all rounds 50% more expensive.  But, from early reports, 50% of the players are walking ... so maybe the demand for caddies really will be there.

I doubt that percentage will hold up in the summer months, but I expect that most of the caddies will choose to be somewhere else besides central Florida in June and July, regardless.  

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