Kingsley vs. True North

[Bob_Garvelink]

I am just curious is how True North compares to Kingsley?  I have played Kingsley and to date its the best track that I have had the opportunity to play thus far.  True North does not get alot of chatter on GCA so I am wondering if the course is even close in terms of playing conditions and enjoyment.  Any comments would be helpful.  The pictures at True North look amazing but am curious to see how others feel about the course and atmosphere.

Cheers,

Bob

[Howard Riefs]

They don't compare beyond both being located in N. Michigan. If given 10 rounds, I'd play 9 at Kingsley.

I last played True North in 2009 and haven't seen it since the it swung back to being private last year. At the time it was finely manicured and routed through the trees. It photographs well but the design isn't as inspiring as a Kingsley.

There's ample insight about Kingsley on the board. One key difference is that Kingsley has fescue fairways while TN is bent. Greater emphasis on the ground game at Kingsley which is absent at TN.

[Bob_Garvelink]

I am just curious is how True North compares to Kingsley?  I have played Kingsley and to date its the best track that I have had the opportunity to play thus far.  True North does not get alot of chatter on GCA so I am wondering if the course is even close in terms of playing conditions and enjoyment.  Any comments would be helpful.  The pictures at True North look amazing but am curious to see how others feel about the course and atmosphere.

Cheers,

Bob

Would you guys pay $250 to play True North? I really want to play that course although that is a bit steep for me but who knows if I will ever have a chance to play it again.  Any comments would be helpful

[Mike Boehm]

Under no circumstances would I pay $250 to play True North, unless thats a 54 hole rate.  And even then I would need to think about it.  Nice golf course, but doesn't belong in the same conversation as Kingsley.

[Jim Tang]

True North is not worth $250!  It is not remotely similar to Kingsley.  I consider Kingsley to be one of the most underrated courses in the country and one of my personal favorites.

Yes, True North photographs very well but the layout is not well done.  There are some extreme elevation changes throughout the property and many of the fairways are saddled through steep embankments.  This means if you miss the fairway by 10 yards, you likely will get hung up in the deep grass on the embankment.  You now have a 45* stance out of thick grass with really no play other than to chop it out.

As stated, the course has no ground game and it was very soft the only time I played there. 

[John Kavanaugh]

True North is not worth $250!  It is not remotely similar to Kingsley.  I consider Kingsley to be one of the most underrated courses in the country and one of my personal favorites.

Yes, True North photographs very well but the layout is not well done.  There are some extreme elevation changes throughout the property and many of the fairways are saddled through steep embankments.  This means if you miss the fairway by 10 yards, you likely will get hung up in the deep grass on the embankment.  You now have a 45* stance out of thick grass with really no play other than to chop it out.

As stated, the course has no ground game and it was very soft the only time I played there. 

You are another Digest rater in love with Kingsley.  I've never met a rater say anything otherwise and yet it sits 14 steps from heaven.  How do the ranking numbers you submitted for Kingsley compare to those of Crystal Downs? 

[Bob_Garvelink]

I was very surprised when True North announced they were going private again.  What do you estimate it takes to keep a private club running in Northern Michigan these days? How much cash annually

[Tom_Doak]

I was very surprised when True North announced they were going private again.  What do you estimate it takes to keep a private club running in Northern Michigan these days? How much cash annually

That could mean one of two things ... either

(a)  They have found enough people to be members in order to make the private option work [there IS a lot of money in Harbor Springs], or

(b)  They can't make it work as a public course so they are trying something else.

[Bob_Garvelink]

I was very surprised when True North announced they were going private again.  What do you estimate it takes to keep a private club running in Northern Michigan these days? How much cash annually

That could mean one of two things ... either

(a)  They have found enough people to be members in order to make the private option work [there IS a lot of money in Harbor Springs], or

(b)  They can't make it work as a public course so they are trying something else.

Tom,

Seems like there was a high number of new courses opened in Michigan from 1997-2007.  DO you think the majority of these courses will survive?  I sure hope so because I love the wide variety of courses that Northern Michigan offers.  Additionally what are the chances of new courses being built in Northern Michigan in the next 20 years?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Seems like there was a high number of new courses opened in Michigan from 1997-2007.  DO you think the majority of these courses will survive?  I sure hope so because I love the wide variety of courses that Northern Michigan offers.  Additionally what are the chances of new courses being built in Northern Michigan in the next 20 years?

Bob:

Actually it was from about 1984 to 2007 ... that's how I was able to find a design job on my own.

I would guess a few more courses will close, but many will survive.  It all depends on location, and who are the regular customers.  There are some real-estate courses that will continue to struggle until the real estate market comes back, but if there are enough homeowners that bought into the place, they all have a vested interest in keeping it going, until the annual losses start to pile up.

As for new courses, there won't be many.  But it's always possible that someone will want to build a special course for their own reasons, instead of just playing the ones that are here; and there's no reason that such a project could succeed, though perhaps at the expense of a competitor.

Frankly it is starting to get hard to see the chances of a new project being built ANYWHERE in the U.S. anytime soon.  I just lost out on the only project we've interviewed for in the past 12 months, in Dallas.  And I've only been contacted about one other project recently that sounded realistic, although at least I know we won't be beaten out for that job, if it happens.

[Bob_Garvelink]

I sure hope your right about most of the courses being able to make it.  When I recently called to 3 high profile courses in Northern Michigan about group golf rates I was quoted $25 for two of the courses and $35 for the other.  These 3 courses are usually near the top 10 best public courses in Michigan.  This just blew my mind and I cant believe rates have dropped that low.

[Howard Riefs]

True North is not worth $250!  It is not remotely similar to Kingsley.  I consider Kingsley to be one of the most underrated courses in the country and one of my personal favorites.

Yes, True North photographs very well but the layout is not well done.  There are some extreme elevation changes throughout the property and many of the fairways are saddled through steep embankments.  This means if you miss the fairway by 10 yards, you likely will get hung up in the deep grass on the embankment.  You now have a 45* stance out of thick grass with really no play other than to chop it out.

As stated, the course has no ground game and it was very soft the only time I played there.  

You are another Digest rater in love with Kingsley.  I've never met a rater say anything otherwise and yet it sits 14 steps from heaven.  How do the ranking numbers you submitted for Kingsley compare to those of Crystal Downs?  

Kingsley has yet to crack the Digest top 100. I'd argue it needs more raters like Jim before he's accused of being yet "another." 

[John Kavanaugh]

It is easy to say you love Kingsley, it takes courage to submit scores equal to Crystal Downs. Obviously Jim is avoiding the question.

[Jim Colton]

His brother is in the ER, so I'm guessing he hasn't spent much time on this thread. I can tell you that Jim has been to Kingsley Club twice, once as a guest of the architect and once as a guest of a member. He hasn't played Crystal Downs.

Here is his published top 50. If you have any questions about it, feel free to PM me and I promise to do my best to get a prompt response.


1. Royal Co. Down-Championship
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Ballybunion-Old
4. Merion - East
5. Ballyneal
6. Friar's Head
7. Sand Hills
8. Lahinch-Old
9. Pebble Beach
10. National Golf Links of America
11. Bandon Dunes
12. Doonbeg
13. Old Head
14. Whistling Straits-Straits
15. Blackwolf Run-River
16. Monterey Peninsula - Shore
17. Kingsley Club
18. Royal Portrush-Dunluce
19. Arcadia Bluffs
20. Sea Island-Seaside
21. Greywalls
22. World Woods-Pine Barrens
23. Bandon Trails
24. Maidstone
25. Old Macdonald
26. Colorado Golf
27. Paa-Ko-Ridge
28. Blackwolf Run-Meadow Valleys
29. Eagle Ridge-The General
30. Caledonia
31. Reynolds Plantation-Oconee
32. Monterey Peninsula-Dunes
33. Cuscowilla
34. Castlepines
35. World Woods-Rolling Oaks
36. Vista Vallarta-Nicklaus
37. Black Sheep
38. TPC at Sawgrass-Stadium
39. The Frog
40. Black Lake
41. Black Mesa
42. Treetops-Masterpiece
43. Lost Dunes
44. Pasatiempo
45. Waterville
46. Flossmoor
47. Sandpines
48. Erin Hills
49. Cog Hill-No. 4
50. Forest Dunes

[John Kavanaugh]

I hope his brother is doing well. My mistake in thinking that anyone who had submitted a ballot for Kingsley had also played Crystal. Digest could do a better job of not accepting ballots for consideration until a larger range of courses have been seen. Like an intern status.

[Jim Colton]

John,

 That sounds like a good idea. One strange thing about that Golf Magazine approach is a panelist who has played less courses can count more than someone who has played every course on their ballot. I guess it's probably not an issue though since their expert pool is very well traveled.

 

[Tom_Doak]

John,

 That sounds like a good idea. One strange thing about that Golf Magazine approach is a panelist who has played less courses can count more than someone who has played every course on their ballot. I guess it's probably not an issue though since their expert pool is very well traveled.

 

How does the panelist who has played less courses count more?

The problem is that your vote for each course counts differently, depending on the number of people who have played each course.  When a course only has 10-20 visits, each vote matters a lot.  The panelist who hasn't played so many courses can affect the course a lot if he rates it very highly.

In pretty much every survey I've ever looked at, people tend to overrate courses as a whole.  If they've seen 50 of the top 100 courses they vote for 60 in the top 100 and another 75 in the second 100 ... which is just unrealistic.  But that's true for nearly every voter until they get up above 90 of the top 100, and then it starts going the other way!  [I have a hard time thinking of 90 courses I really feel should be in the top 100 in the U.S.]

[Jim Colton]

Tom,

  Here is the description:

"Each course that places in the top three on a panelist's ballot earns 100 points; spots 4-10 earn 85 points, followed by 11-25 (70 points), 26-50 (60 points), 51-75 (50 points), 76-100 (40 points), 101-150 (30 points), 151-200 (20 points), 201-250 (10 points) and 251+ (0 points)."

  Maybe you can clarify. Do you classify courses into the 1-3, 4-10, 11-25, etc tiers (but not necessarily limited to how many you put in a tier, i.e. you could have 10 courses in the 11-25 tier), or do you rank all of the courses on your ballot and Joe then slices it into the different point buckets?

  If it's the latter...assume two different panelists who have the same relative feelings about a given course. One has played 150 courses on the ballot and thinks its 75th overall. It would get 50 points. Another panelist has played 310 courses on the ballot has the same course ranked 155th. That course would get 20 points.

  Again, I don't think it's an issue since most of the guys have played a ton of courses, but on the surface it looks a little odd.