[Paul Dolton]

Hi , i'm a new member here so forgive me if this subject has been covered(i'm sure it has). I play at Frilford Heath in oxfordshire and last year we changed a par 5 into a par 4. No alterations to hole, it was re measured but members keep saying its more difficult. Pointing out it makes no difference to medal play or match play does not convince them. Any thoughts?

[John Kavanaugh]

When you can tell me why I stroke bogey putts smoother than birdie putts we might have an answer.  Par matters.

[Josh Tarble]

When you can tell me why I stroke bogey putts smoother than birdie putts we might have an answer.  Par matters.

Yeap,  we have a hole at my club that's a par 4 from the tips and par 5 from member tees.  Not much more than 10 yards difference, but I nearly always birdie (4) from the member tees and struggle to bogey (5) from the tips.  I have no reason as to why.

[Paul Gray]

Hi Paul,

I'm pretty new here too and this subject has already been touched upon in one way or another on a few occasions in my time here.

This is simply further evidence, as if any were needed, that golf is fundamentally a mental game. If you can separate yourself from the crowd and remember that ultimately nothing has changed, good luck to you. Whether you're competing with yourself or others, ultimately your courses' difficulty is reflected in the SSS. Par should be of no relevance.

There are quite a few on this site that can give you a professional perspective on this issue and how, as architects, they may or may not use par to induce silly shots out of golfers. In reality the hole you refer to is what's often called a par 4 1/2, which always strikes me as a very sensible way of viewing it.



  

[Carl Johnson]

Paul, here's a first page (for now) discussion that involves par, one step removed:http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54469.0.html

[Ross Tuddenham]

When you can tell me why I stroke bogey putts smoother than birdie putts we might have an answer.  Par matters.

John,

What do you use to judge the success of your rounds? If a tally of how many pars you made was the sole criteria then I understand that comment but surely you are trying to shoot as low a score as possible, and therefore all shots saved are important?

I don't know what standard you play to, but do your bogey putts feel like easier putts because they are generally tap ins after missed par putts?

[John Kavanaugh]

When you can tell me why I stroke bogey putts smoother than birdie putts we might have an answer.  Par matters.

John,

What do you use to judge the success of your rounds? If a tally of how many pars you made was the sole criteria then I understand that comment but surely you are trying to shoot as low a score as possible, and therefore all shots saved are important?

I don't know what standard you play to, but do your bogey putts feel like easier putts because they are generally tap ins after missed par putts?

Ross,

I play match play and judge my success by if I win. Score is also a necessary evil for handicap purposes. My mind is a wreck, so much so that I also make more putts to win than to tie. I also count chickens like an Amish accountant.

I don't care what anyone says a four foot putt for bogey is easier than a four foot putt for birdie.

[Sean Leary]

When you can tell me why I stroke bogey putts smoother than birdie putts we might have an answer.  Par matters.

John,

What do you use to judge the success of your rounds? If a tally of how many pars you made was the sole criteria then I understand that comment but surely you are trying to shoot as low a score as possible, and therefore all shots saved are important?

I don't know what standard you play to, but do your bogey putts feel like easier putts because they are generally tap ins after missed par putts?

Ross,

I play match play and judge my success by if I win. Score is also a necessary evil for handicap purposes. My mind is a wreck, so much so that I also make more putts to win than to tie. I also count chickens like an Amish accountant.

I don't care what anyone says a four foot putt for bogey is easier than a four foot putt for birdie.

or par for that matter. And I don't think I have ever missed a 4 footer for double or triple. Par always matters unless you don't keep score.

[Kevin Lynch]

Paul,

I have no problem with newer members asking about topics that have been covered before.  Sometimes, the search function is lacking, so repeat questions are understandable.  Also, sometimes it's good to hear new perspectives (or even see how your own perspective may have changed over the years).

I had an almost identical situation to yours, where one of my favorite risk/reward par 5s was changed overnight to be one of the most ferocious par 4s I've ever seen.  And I used to rail about it for years.  I even thought I was more justified because the hazards in the drive zone, small green and OB left were clearly geared towards it being a Par 5.

But mainly through this website, I've been turned around on the subject.  I've come to accept that the par is irrelevant on that hole, and that I should play it the same way, regardless of what the scorecard says.

Like you indicated in your first post, it should have no effect on medal or match play.  Taking it even further, it probably should have no effect on handicap, either, as the USGA should give the hole the same score for the course rating.  It's really just about the ego of wanting a short pitch to set up birdie instead of trying to save par.

It took a while for me to accept that premise, and it's still tough, because I think we all generally prefer the 1/2 par hole on the "easy side."  But, I just changed my attitude on that hole from "expecting" an easy par on a reachable-5 to relishing the challenge of toughing out a very meaningful par 4.


I did a quick search using "does par matter" and found a few posts here.  I know there are many more, and I may have some luck finding them with some other search phrases.  


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,17410.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.0.html

[Kevin Lynch]

Paul,

Here's another good discussion I found entitled "Can a hole be really good if it has the wrong par on the scorecard?"

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48554.0.html

[Dan King]

Par is what a scratch golfer is expected to shoot. If you aren't a scratch golfer or better, what difference does it make?  You are generally shooting higher than par anyway.

Cheers,
Dan King

Par is a designation of excellence.
 --Robert Sommers

[John Kavanaugh]

Numbers are never just numbers until you are the last one picked.

[Dan King]

John Kavanaugh writes:
Numbers are never just numbers until you are the last one picked.

Sometimes a golf hole is just a golf hole.

Cheers,
Dan King

Par is whatever I say it is. I've got one hole that's a par 23 and yesterday I damn near birdied the sucker.
 --Willie Nelson

[mike_beene]

Just play off 4.Makes the par 3s really fun and makes it easier to lay up on a hole because more short holes to come.You can hack it around and still shoot a good score.

[Sean_A]

Par only matters as much as a golfer wants it to matter, but I can see trying to balance a card for the sake of good appearances.  For instance, if a course has a handful of 275-350 yard 4s, I don't see anything wrong with having a 490 yard par 4.  Its complete gibberish, but from a PR PoV, it can be helpful.   

What gets me is when archies design to par.  Meaning they seek to create a total par or build greens to a par (long par 4s should be large greens, par 5s can be small greens etc).  That sort of predetermined thinking can only be bad for architecture. 

Ciao

[Doug Siebert]

I play match play and judge my success by if I win. Score is also a necessary evil for handicap purposes. My mind is a wreck, so much so that I also make more putts to win than to tie. I also count chickens like an Amish accountant.

I don't care what anyone says a four foot putt for bogey is easier than a four foot putt for birdie.

or par for that matter. And I don't think I have ever missed a 4 footer for double or triple. Par always matters unless you don't keep score.

This is easy to test.  Let's play together for a week and make a $500,000 wager that you can't make all your four footers for double or triple, with a minimum of a half dozen (if you're a really good golfer we might have to play together for a month for you to have enough doubles and triples...)  I'll bet you find that suddenly they are far more difficult....in fact I'm sure there would be plenty of people on GCA making side bets that you'd miss the first one.  I know I would (miss the first one, that is )

[Jud_T]

When you can tell me why I stroke bogey putts smoother than birdie putts we might have an answer.  Par matters.

Ahhhhhh, a chink in the mental game armor.  Note for future reference....We're going to make you play the 15th at Kingsley over and over until you self-immolate...

[Paul Gray]

Like you indicated in your first post, it should have no effect on medal or match play.  Taking it even further, it probably should have no effect on handicap, either, as the USGA should give the hole the same score for the course rating.  It's really just about the ego of wanting a short pitch to set up birdie instead of trying to save par.

Paul,

In case you're not familiar, the USGA rating equates, on our side of the pond, to the SSS I mentioned before. In this context it's the same thing, i.e. the rating of the hole difficulty, and subsequently the course difficulty, won't have actually changed one bit. Every hole is assessed on its merits and reflected in the SSS, regardless of what number sits in the par column on a scorecard.

[Joe_Tucholski]

I was reading an old golf book and it mentioned a game called Col Bogey.  I hadn't heard the term but a google search brought up the following story.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1915/ag142h.pdf

i knew stroke play scoring came long after match play but guess I didn't fully realize it started as a way to have a match when playing with yourself.  To JK's point a putt in match play is much easier after you've already lost the hole.

[Dan King]

The good Colonel made a whole lot more sense than Old Man Par for non-scratch golf.  Kind of makes you wonder why Americans went and screwed up something that was working.

Cheers,
Dan King

But I winna' speak o' gowf, oh no. I can only tell ye about my teacher, for 'twas he ha showed me the way. 'Twas he taught me a' the graces o' the geeme, to hold my temper when retreatin' from par or bogey, to use the inner eye to make the game a very prayer.
 --Evan Tyree

[Steve Salmen]

Par matters if you care about par.

If you don't care, it does not matter.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()