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Ronald Montesano

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Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« on: January 05, 2013, 09:37:50 AM »
El Ran (as we call him in the barrio of Grand Island, NY) wrote in what passes for his state of the state address:

I did just buy a new camera yesterday that has video and hope to start tinkering with video as an add-on to some Feature Interviews. Ben and I are both sensitive to change and committed to keeping GolfClubAtlas.com fresh, yet neither of us believe that change for change's sake is the best path. The question is: Does it make it better?

Mike Sweeney warns of the perils of bad video and the time required to edit good video. Might video be of some use to this site, or are we wordsmiths? I'm optimistic that it might, but I'll hold my ideas until others have chimed in.

Ran, feel free to delete this thread if it takes a dysfunctional turn.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2013, 10:49:53 AM »
No question video would improve the site. People can forgive bad video its bad audio thats the problem. So doing outdoor interviews is a bit harder.

Ian Andrew did a series of videos on the renovation of Laval-sur-le-lac Blue Course http://youtu.be/DWns69aB4a4

More like this would be welcome.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 12:12:03 AM by Mike McGuire »

Mike Sweeney

Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2013, 12:23:47 PM »

Ian Andrews did a series of videos on the renovation of Laval-sur-le-lac Blue Course http://youtu.be/DWns69aB4a4


Ron,

Just to clarify, I am a huge believer in video. This series from Ian is exactly what should be on GCA. The content that he provides is always very high quality, first with his Blog and writings and now with his video. Ian's stuff does not need professional editing because he is so interesting.

This site has always started with the quality of Ran's reviews, and they continue to to get better. The reviews were by far the best in golf, and they often led you to "secret" places never seen before due to proximity or privacy. Having done one In My Opinion piece that now looks terribly dated, I have some concept of how much effort he puts into these reviews.

These reviews brought in high quality followers, friendships developed and the rest is history. What belongs on Facebook and user generated content (non-professional) on YouTube may not be appropriate for GCA.com. The fact that photo reviews here are slightly complicated to import here (one picture at a time) is a good thing as it forces people to think and edit their content. If you could load up 100 photos with no thought directly from your iPhone, the quality drops.

In 10+ years on GCA, I have posted mainly nonsense on GCA, but on this one I do know a little bit about video as I work for a subsidiary of www.filmannex.com and we are the third ranked video portal on the internet behind YouTube and Vimeo with 52 million unique visitors per month mainly through our 20,000+ independent filmmakers. They serve up niche content similar to GCA.com.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2013, 01:10:53 PM »
It will be far easier to ignore bad videos than it is to ignore poor photography.  I do wish we could address the quality of one before we move to the other.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2013, 01:57:18 PM »
I guess I was not paying attention, or was distracted, because I totally missed Ian's YouTube series.  Thanks for pointing me to it, Mike.

The question as I understand it, involves the GCA.com site having some mechanism like Facebook does to post video direct.  Is that correct?

If so, I suggest that it only allow some limitted time for the video to play, per video downloaded.  For instance, about 30 to 45 seconds can allow someone to post a video view from a tee, zoom down the corridor to relavant features seen from the tee, then take up the process from an LZ, pan right and left, and to the green. Then, do a sweep of the green and surrounds.  I've done this as I'm sure many have, and one can efficiently show a hole in 30 seconds that way and give a vivid idea of the nature of the hole and features, far beyond a single photo, IMO. 

What we don't want while the video is playing is anything more than a running comment about what the screen is showing.  And example is:

(opening seconds) 'this is a view from the tee of 17, seen is the corridor towards the LZ, with a bunker to the left at a slight dogleg left, and a slope to the right side of the LZ (said while zooming and panning into the relavant features.  (about 10 seconds)  {next}' This is a view from the middle of the turning point, with a view to the left at the bunker located there, and the slope behind the bunker towards the green, and a scan to the right where the slope can be used to play the groung around the slight dogleg, favoring the right side. (another 10 seconds)  {next} 'this is the entrance foregreen, showing the false front leading to a collection area on the right front of the green, and the green guarding bunker front left. (10 seconds) {next} 'this is a view from behind the green, looking back up the approach corridor, and pan the green surrounds left and right, show any relavant extra features.  (10-15 seconds).

Such a presentation, efficient, with no blather other than what the view is demonstrating, is an visual aid, IMO.  But, blather and going too long on the video will be a distraction, I think.  The blather can then come in the form of the written comments by the thread participants.  All can refer to the original video, and if calling attention to something further about something shown on the video, the commentator can then say, going back to the .22second mark, where you see that bunker slope, I also have played that hole and this happended, etc. 

Or, we can simply use YouTube as Ian Andrew and Gil Hanse has done during their projects, and post the link to whatever the GCA.com poster may have placed on YouTube, and go from there.  Surely, what Ian has done, is robust and allows plenty of ability for us on GCA.com to review Ian's offering, and then make our written comments.

Don't forget, one new and perhaps stunning leap of technology is just now coming on the market.  Home video camera 3D!!!  I haven't looked into how it is displayed or if YouTube or other sites can upload 3D and then replay on one's PC monitor, and if 3D glasses will be required, etc.  But at the velocity technology is coming at us, who knows what will be available, and soon. 

This whole discussion of whether GCA.com should incorporate a video function may already be a trailing question, and the current question is how we might use 3D...... or smell-o-vision!   ;) ::) ;D 8) 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Neil White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2013, 02:22:49 PM »
Ron,

I second what Mike S has said about Ian Andrews' series re Laval - fascinating, informative and just the right length so as not to drag on and lose the interest of the viewer. 

Finding anything of worth re. GCA on Youtube is a pretty tall order - there are some great interviews / PTC's from a small number of architects but that is the exception to the rule.

Perhaps we could have an option to link to those videos considered suitable on the top bar or as part of the 'in my opinion' / feature interviews sections?

Neil.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2013, 03:10:20 PM »
RJ...Don't feel like you missed it. Ian is the last guy to draw attention to himself. Reminds me of my favorite "award" in our annual yearbook senior poll: Speaks Least, Says Most.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2013, 03:12:13 PM »
This has been terrific thus far. Remember that I am not a self-appointed anything. I like this forum most when the swarm voices its suggestions and opinions. Perhaps the proper timbre will reveal itself to The Most Interesting Man In Golf.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2013, 03:39:27 PM »
Mike makes an interesting point about the effort required acting as a sort of quality control.

Personally, I think adding tags to embed video a la

Code: [Select]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MjZvWL7NWw [/video]


...would be a welcome addition to the site.  (That's Ogilvy Clayton talking about Bonnie Doon).  Those tags and php extensions exist, they aren't enabled here.

There is a precedent; apparently we can embed Flash (and by extension, flash videos) in the site already.  The little pinwheel button inserts the Flash tag.

Code: [Select]

[flash]http://static.tbs.com/minigolf/minigolf.swf[/flash]


Then again, it doesn't seem to embed....but I'm no expert in this. ::)

http://static.tbs.com/minigolf/minigolf.swf
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 03:42:57 PM by David Harshbarger »
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2013, 03:46:40 PM »
Strike three...tried three different BBcodes and none worked. My guess is that The Powers That B have blocked video embedding.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 03:51:28 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2013, 04:08:21 PM »
The old guy states we already have to lug around golf clubs.  Now we have to lug sticks (tripod) as well?  I get motion sickness from a lot of hand held stuff. 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2013, 04:18:17 PM »
Congratulations, Dave. Now you are a "Full Member."

And no, you don't have to lug anything around. If I were going to make a video on something GCA related, the last simultaneous thing I would do would be to actually play golf.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Peter Pallotta

Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2013, 04:27:32 PM »
I have an old, slow lap top - so won't be watching many videos on here. I guess they could be good; but they hide (or videographers tends to think they hide) a multitude of sins.  If one can't write anything of interest, he's not likely to videograph anything of interest either; and if a golf hole can't be captured in a photo or two, shaking 'moving' images of an unmoving golf hole won't be an improvement. Sure, I guess someone can tee off and then follow the ball bounding and bouncing down the fairway, and thus argue (yet again) that fast and firm is best.  But as I say, I won't be watching so wish you the best.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 04:31:33 PM by PPallotta »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2013, 05:05:43 PM »
8) as i just noted in ran's annual thread

p.s. and about that video thing, let youtube deal with it, unless you're going to show us the back passages of the GCA Abbey


if ran or ben provide it, I'm sure it will be of high quality, not so sure of others..  I can just see a 50 page thread with video butts and rebutts littering the bandwith..  not thoughtful discussion

very easy to ignore as JK mentioned.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2013, 05:21:29 PM »
Gentlemen,

Unsurprisingly I second Peter P's sentiments. It is the writing and ensuing discussion coupled with a few germane photographs which give this site its special place in my heart. I suspect "home-videos" will detract from that.
As Mike Sweeney says ".... video done well is very complicated and expensive." and Mike McG, with all due respect, why should we  ".... forgive bad video" on this site of all sites. These ideas seem to bolster my contention above that videos will sully the site!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2013, 05:23:15 PM »
I think the video nay-Sayers are largely overstating the case against, be it on bandwidth, production values, watch ability, value of content, or whatever, at least as a content type on the discussion group.

Typically, videos don't download until launched, so the bandwidth isn't consumed.

Like photos, there's no need to host the content at GCA.com, so no one has to pay for that directly.

Handheld production is largely accepted for lightweight content, much the way phone camera quality is accepted.

The ubiquity and ease of quick capture video opens up a whole new world of cheap, spontaneous content, which with little imagination could definitely enrich this site and forum.

It was windy day at the links.  How windy?  Watch this putt blown off line....
The backboard really worked.  How well?  Watch this shot....
The same great gentleman has served hot dogs at the turn for 35 years.  Meet him....
The super joined us on the back nine and shared the tree removal plans.  Here's what he had to say.....

The technical hurdles to enable video on a PHP site are small, I believe, and the practicalities in use would likely be little different than embedding photos.  And much like photos, a well placed clip, in context, can really set off a conversation.

To me, it seems obvious that if the option were available would be valuable and used here on the board.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2013, 05:35:50 PM »
The selected use of video in this recent piece from the NY Times shows how good it could be.  An outstanding presentation of a tragic story.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/#/?part=tunnel-creek
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2013, 05:39:36 PM »
The selected use of video in this recent piece from the NY Times shows how good it could be.  An outstanding presentation of a tragic story.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/#/?part=tunnel-creek

That is an absolutely amazing piece of digital-media journalism.  DO NOT click that link unless you have 1 1/2 hours free.  You will not be able to stop reading/interacting with the story.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2013, 05:49:13 PM »
Dave's last post, from about five minutes ago:

Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #17 on: Today at 08:39:36 AM »


Why is the time stamp so off? Is it set to Australian standard time?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2013, 05:58:41 PM »
I have an old, slow lap top - so won't be watching many videos on here. I guess they could be good; but they hide (or videographers tends to think they hide) a multitude of sins.  If one can't write anything of interest, he's not likely to videograph anything of interest either; and if a golf hole can't be captured in a photo or two, shaking 'moving' images of an unmoving golf hole won't be an improvement. Sure, I guess someone can tee off and then follow the ball bounding and bouncing down the fairway, and thus argue (yet again) that fast and firm is best.  But as I say, I won't be watching so wish you the best.

Peter

Peter, I like to think that given the limited membership and consistently high quality content generated in words and pictures, that we would see a similarly high quality of video content.  I wouldn't expect high production values, but the appropriateness, artfulness, expressiveness, and thoughtfulness would be there because of who we all are.

And given that we all contribute as much as we do because we value the feedback and interaction of the members, like yourself, I would expect embedded video to be quality checked for the same reasons, because we all care, and our names are on these.

I've been through many many photo tours, and an interesting phenomenon appears.  The early ones were often little more than a handful of photos.  But over time, the quality, breadth, and expressiveness evolved, essentially creating this new genre that we now all love, especially when wielded by masters.

I suspect that if embedded video were available, we would see a similar evolution, as video and mixed media content applied thoughtfully would come to define a new state of the art for discussing and understanding golf course architecture.  
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2013, 06:40:30 PM »
Just as we do now with words or images, we would quickly learn for each of us, which contributors video content to ignore or search out.

Every post now automatically takes up around 200 pixels of screen height even if its a single line so a video clip would only add a little bit and could take up less space than a single image. Seems video would be preferred over stills because you could do a slideshow of still images in a single window and not have 20 separate images forcing a long scroll down.

Common for someone to quote a multiple image post and force even more scrolling.

As Gib P commented earlier a little more fun around here is welcome. Video can sometimes provide this easier than words.

A 32 second video of my friend teeing off on 18 at The Old Course. http://youtu.be/I0blJRtjKDA

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2013, 06:46:11 PM »
I think the video nay-Sayers are largely overstating the case against, be it on bandwidth, production values, watch ability, value of content, or whatever, at least as a content type on the discussion group.

Typically, videos don't download until launched, so the bandwidth isn't consumed.

Like photos, there's no need to host the content at GCA.com, so no one has to pay for that directly.

Handheld production is largely accepted for lightweight content, much the way phone camera quality is accepted.

The ubiquity and ease of quick capture video opens up a whole new world of cheap, spontaneous content, which with little imagination could definitely enrich this site and forum.

It was windy day at the links.  How windy?  Watch this putt blown off line....
The backboard really worked.  How well?  Watch this shot....
The same great gentleman has served hot dogs at the turn for 35 years.  Meet him....
The super joined us on the back nine and shared the tree removal plans.  Here's what he had to say.....

The technical hurdles to enable video on a PHP site are small, I believe, and the practicalities in use would likely be little different than embedding photos.  And much like photos, a well placed clip, in context, can really set off a conversation.

To me, it seems obvious that if the option were available would be valuable and used here on the board.

Dave

I completely agree. Good content is good content. You know who has done some excellent video work on here in the past is Will Smith of Punchbowl Golf. It's been a while though since I've seen anything new posted, but what he did post was always enjoyable.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2013, 06:53:49 PM »
The selected use of video in this recent piece from the NY Times shows how good it could be.  An outstanding presentation of a tragic story.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/#/?part=tunnel-creek

That is an absolutely amazing piece of digital-media journalism.  DO NOT click that link unless you have 1 1/2 hours free.  You will not be able to stop reading/interacting with the story.

Yes, thanks for sharing this. NY Times is front and center on technology.

In terms of reasonable budget, Go Pro style action and very good sports editing, Surf Bums does a very nice job:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SurfBumsProductions?v=sj3luy5C6eg

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2013, 07:01:24 PM »
There is some great (though limited) video info available about golf architecture available, and it can easily be linked here as Ian's piece was.  But if it becomes an integral part of the site I expect that it will bury the good information under the bad.

If Ran wants to put it in a separate place, that's up to him; I can just choose not to watch!  But if he thought staying on top of libel and slander was tough with the printed word, video will add a whole new dimension. 

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Might Video Add Something To GCA?
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2013, 07:31:28 PM »
To me, the value that this board brings is that it inspires this diverse group of enthusiasts to create thought-provoking content.  We want to contribute, to provoke, to explain, to teach, and to explore for each other. 

If we could embed video in the stream of the conversation, I think we would all be amazed at the contributions people come with. 

Embedding is key, though, as embedded content has context.  Links to content just aren't the same.

One particular area I'm curious about is video as a way of capturing the essence of architecture, by capturing how people actually interact with the course.  In usability studies, we video real people as they interact with their world.  We also write about them, but being able to watch someone grapple with their world, physical or virtual, can't be replaced with words.  What might we all learn with videos of people playing courses, not about the people, but about how the course effects the people?  And if there is anything to be learned, where else is there a committed mass to explore that than here?
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright