News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
........if they had their own plane?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 11:11:13 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 11:10:30 PM »
Not me.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2013, 11:45:27 PM »
Plane...or jet?

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2013, 11:58:17 PM »
You rang?

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 12:08:23 AM »
I wouldn't disqualify a company because of it.  Maybe they are excellent at what they do?  I will admit to preferring an attorney with a small/modest office though :)

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 12:44:44 AM »
Didn't think you would Chris...besides there are few if any left standing...or flying anyway.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 12:24:47 PM »
You rang?

No fair, yours include assorted weaponry!

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 02:43:16 PM »
Nope

I'd hire Doak and Mahaffey.  Sims?  he could fly a bulldozer.

Ivan Morris

Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2013, 02:46:44 PM »
Why not hire the guy from The Straight Story movie with his all-purpose lawn mower? 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2013, 02:53:16 PM »
Paul,

Well obviously I have, having worked with Landscapes Unlimited.  While some would automatically assume there is too much profit in their bid, if they are low bid among responsible contractors, why should I care?  I do know for a fact, that they were experts in keeping other forms of overhead low.  They didn't even have an equipment warehouse for the first twenty years of their existence. 

And, after choosing to live in Lincoln, NB, its not like they have as easy access to quick commerical flights as some of the rest of us.  I have occaisionlly done the math of flying private with 5-6 employees vs 5 airline tickets at the last minute and its not always extravagence.  Add in the shared corproate lease that most of those guys had, and it can make sense for a busy contractor.  I bet few have planes now anyway.

Add in the fact that I would prefer that my contractors make reasonable profit, and I see no harm in it.  According to the AGC, the average contractors profit is about 1% anyway, not enough for the risk they take.  Granted, it might be more, and then spent on high overhead items like planes, which is their perrogative.

Related, but what gca's had planes?  I know William Mitchell had one, and also Bob Graves, although both were props.  Can't recall any others who regularly flew themselves into jobs.  Now, I know a lot who fly themselves into a frenzy, but that is an entirely different story!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2013, 02:59:36 PM »
In all seriousness, I've thought about some type of business model involving golf construction-turf consultation-flying after I leave the Air Force.  I know Mike Young has a Bonanza at his disposal.  I know it would be cost prohibitive in many respects.  Maybe Greenscape Methods, MYDGolf or Renaissance will need a pilot with a turfgrass Masters degree one day.  One can only hope.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2013, 02:50:59 AM »
I actually hired Medalist Golf.  They are local for me and didn't need to fly but I could not have been happier.  Great company and great guys to work with.  Obviously I bid out the renovation project among three contractors.  Going in the architect and I were prepared to not be able to afford Medalist even though he had worked with them and loved their work and their shaper who would work on the job in particular. Joey Valesquez in fact.  Any way, they came in with the best bid and did terrific work.

I have done some additional work since 2006 and the only call I made was straight to the project manager Detrick Brock.  The owners are great guys and while they have a plane, I'm convinced it's because they do great work, treat people right and are successful.

Plus, I've flown with them to play some golf and it was a fun day :).

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2013, 06:29:46 AM »
In all seriousness, I've thought about some type of business model involving golf construction-turf consultation-flying after I leave the Air Force.  I know Mike Young has a Bonanza at his disposal.  I know it would be cost prohibitive in many respects.  Maybe Greenscape Methods, MYDGolf or Renaissance will need a pilot with a turfgrass Masters degree one day.  One can only hope.


I bought a new Bonanza in 1994 for around $450,000 so we are not talking some big number like the jet boys.  That's less than some bulldozers.  But here was my logic.  Based in the SE and flying mainly in the SE I could leave in the morning at 6:30 and be on a jobsite in a central time zone by 8:30 easily.  I could be back home by 5pm easily and ready to go the next day.  It used 16 gallons of fuel per hour and averaged around 165 knots.  Now if I were to use commercial air and need to get to a small town in Miss I could either drive for a day or fly to Memphis etc. and then rent a car and drive to a site, rent a hotel for at least one nite and then back to Memphis and then back home.  That is three long days for one site visit. The client would rather pay for my plane time at $350 per hour than three days and hotel, commercial air, rental car etc.   And more importantly to me, no plane would require that I hire more people and eventually you train them and then they are who the client sees and then the next thing you know they are competing against you.  Another use for it was it allowed you to bring your shapers home more often and back out which is good for moral and family.  So HELL YES I would use a plane if I was doing design/build.  It cost the client less and it saved me a larger payroll and gave more personal time with the client and project instead of an employee. 

As with many planes, when things slowed down I sold my Bonanza and I sold it for about $15000 more than I paid for it , which, as you know , is fairly common.  I still rent 100 hours per year on the same plane and I don't consider it extravagant.  I consider it practical.  So I think a lot of this rumor mill stuff of people having planes etc is malarkey.  Jeff, I think you even told me one time you had heard I had part of some "jet" company ;D ;D which ain't true.   An airplane for many contractors or design/build guys is no different than a bulldozer.  I know several regional architects that have planes but they are on site guys and it works for them.  The right plane makes sense.  And the wrong plane goes under the 3 F's category( if it Floats, Flys or F*#ks, rent it ;D)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2013, 07:07:54 AM »
The client would rather pay for my plane time at $350 per hour than three days and hotel, commercial air, rental car etc.   

Mike,

Nice layout of your thought process. Roughly speaking, how much per hour is a plane that could fly a foursome from Teterboro, NJ to Pinehurst?

Does your plane have the range to fly you to Nicaragua? Nice article on your new course by the way:

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/nicaraguan_golf_development_with_an_american_twist

Bill Kubly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2013, 08:21:42 AM »
Airplanes:  we have lost jobs and been given jobs due to having an airplane.  In the busy days, I called our plane a "Time Machine".  It was the only way that my project managers and I could get around to the jobs in a timely manner and a way to still have a life.  This was in the days of building 10-20 large projects at one time.  I was always happy to see my guys roll into the office at 5:30 on a Friday night because they had taken the plane.  Trying to get back to Lincoln Nebraska late in the day can be a challenge at times.  Today it is much different as most of the big jobs are gone.  We use the plane from time to time, but our usage has been cut to one third of our past usage.   We would sell the plane today, but there really isn't any market for it and may never be again due to our genius president.  Just this week, I loaded up 5 guys and myself and headed for Teterboro, NJ at 6 am.  When we arrived, we split up and headed in 2 directions, with 2 of us heading to Manhattan and the others to a project in Jersey.  After our city meeting we stopped to see 3 GCA friends in Jersey and then we all headed back to the airport for a flight to DC at about 5 pm.  We split up again and went to 2 separate projects on Friday.  I spent my day with 3 of my guys and LESTER on a project potential project of his, and the others went to a course that we own in that market.  We all started at 8 am and met again at the airport at 4:30 and flew back to Lincoln, home by 6 pm (1 hr time change).  2 very busy days, but unbelievably productive.  I wish there were enough  big jobs around to justify using the plane more, but it truly has been a big part of Landscapes Unlimited's success and a big part in maintaining a life for me and my people.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2013, 08:54:00 AM »
Well Mike, you are one of the few I would hire...as long as it was a co design/design build  :)

On the last job I worked with a plane contractor, the underlings did more scurrying around in anticipation of the owners flight arrival and visit than the designers time on the job (mine, usually 3+ days a week). They would blow in for 2 half days and 1 grog/food fest/girl groping evening once or twice a month. I wasn't impressed.

No, I'd prefer to go small and work with the guys on the ground who get the job done...either by hiring them direct or going with a smaller company whose principals wear boots not loafers.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2013, 09:03:59 AM »
If the architect is not running the excavator, the client is paying too much.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2013, 09:44:55 AM »
If the architect is not running the excavator, the client is paying too much.

Tim,

I'd like to buy this line from you to use in my marketing ;D
jeffmingay.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2013, 09:59:24 AM »
Paul - I haven't worked construction in over 20 years, and now have the soft and flabby body of a desk jockey, but even I would look down my nose at a group of plane flying, loafer-wearing labourers*  Call me superficial, but it's important to look the part, no?

Peter

* On the jobs I worked, the bricklayer was the skilled tradesman -- the rest of us were labourers, and he never let us forget it!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you hire a GC construction company to build your course...
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2013, 11:34:43 AM »
The client would rather pay for my plane time at $350 per hour than three days and hotel, commercial air, rental car etc.   

Mike,

Nice layout of your thought process. Roughly speaking, how much per hour is a plane that could fly a foursome from Teterboro, NJ to Pinehurst?

Does your plane have the range to fly you to Nicaragua? Nice article on your new course by the way:

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/nicaraguan_golf_development_with_an_american_twist

Mike,
You can probably find a guy with a small King Air or Baron to fly you there for around $650 to $900 per hour but your problem will be the "dead head" time for him to come back and get you. So you would have to pay him to fly down and drop you and then come back in a few days to get you.  I would estimate a total of around 6 hours. 
About 15 years ago I took another pilot with me and we flew a Bonanza to Costa Rica.  It took almost 11 hours flight time.  We took a fuel filter hand pump for our fuel stops and we slept on a dirt runway in Belize because we had to make three customs stops along the way.  But there is no way a single engine prop plane can be justified for working from Athens Ga to Central America.  I just fly Delta anywhere outside of about 4 hours flight time unless I go to Michigan.  For example to fly to Dallas on Commercial I would need to drive to Atl and be there 1.5 hours ahead of flight so that would be three hours plus 2 hour flight and then taxi to terminal, get a cab and rent a car.  In a single engine Bonanza with a slight headwind I can make Dallas in about 4.25 hours so I would beat my time in a commercial jet but it doesnt make much sense after that. 
BTW, one of those signature archies with blond hair, straight teeth and a 34 inch waist charges the client $50,000 for his plane to come to Costa Rica.  I don't think I would do that unless it was Paul Cowley. ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"